How would you tell Joe Louis to fight a prime Foreman

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Less of a role, but still a significant role. Also your comparisons don't hold up because you're comparing actual punchers to fighters who weren't punchers in the first place. That closes the gap. And some of the fighters we're analyzing like Braddock and Conn weren't punchers either especially @ HW and compared to George Foreman they're packing even less of a punch.

To go even further in Foreman's favor, he himself fought big men who were some of the hardest punchers ever like Lyle, Frazier, Morrison, Cooney, Briggs and needless to say he showed an incredible chin. Louis would be way in over his head here. He's facing a specimen who can quickly dispatch of him and can take anything he dishes out and keep going(unlike any opponent he faced).

Now you're getting pieced up by other members of the forum. Ready to throw in the towel?

[BKM-]

I'm gonna have to make a couple of gifs to illustrate my points some more.

1. No I don't think you're acting like a boxing genius. I think you're acting like someone who falls easy prey to dogma.

Says the admitted young punk who is acting like a biased old timer who discredit newer generations of boxing. You fell prey to that dogma as a young boy. That's what I meant when you're projecting.

But there's hope for you. I was 15 years old when I first joined this forum in 2006 and fell into the same trap at times. But I became balanced in my thoughts about classic and modern boxing in my early to mid 20s.

2. Weight class has nothing to do with it. This isn't a match up between a middleweight and a heavyweight. This is a match up between two heavyweights.

Size matters, that's what it has to do with it. Foreman's completely lean at 225lbs and his physicality is being compared to some of Louis' opponents who weren't even shredded at 190. Some of those guys would be cruiserweights in newer era's of HW boxing. They had nowhere near his punching power and strength, and yes part of that is because of the size difference.

You can't even argue on my level

Yes I would have to lower my IQ all the way down to 75 to argue on your level.

3. You say millions of people thought weight matters but yet these SAME people thought that weight didn't matter at heavyweight which is why they made the division unlimited

.

I agree that it becomes less significant at 200lb+ but not with a comparison like 190lbs vs 225+. Secondly, when they first made HW, the overwhelming majority of guys were close to the same size say 190-210. Back then they did not have a lot quality HW's of 230, 240 and even 260+ like the 90s up to today.

The difference is, the Ali's, Foreman's, Holmes were lean 200+ pound men with great heights and reach. They are close to the size of today's HW's because most of today's HW's are overweight or over-muscled from PED's. But the 180-190lb guys from Louis and before, most of them are definitely a weightclass below the aforementioned fighters. Cruiserweights in another era.

And they never made HW because they thought "it didn't matter". They always acknowledged that size advantages between HW's matter. Just not enough to water it down by creating CW, HW and perhaps "SuperHW".

Always going to extremes huh kid? Everything is black and white to you, that's why you're such a dope.

5. Foreman pushed around a bunch of small men. Joe Frazier was 5'10". Not the 6'2 that Louis was. It's not a shoving contest anyway. It's a boxing match. Pushing your opponent out of your range is pretty dumb and wastes energy. That's why nobody really does it.

False, the likes of Lyle, Ali and others were close to his size(And Frazier was shorter but Louis' weight, actually he was slightly heavier). Ali and Lyle were very strong men, far stronger than Louis and his opponents. That's why Foreman didn't man handle them as much, but he was still the stronger man. He would bully Louis in the clinch, no question about that. You need to watch more footage of this guy in his prime, he was IMO the strongest HW of all time atleast p4p.

7. Marciano had power on Foreman's level so that statement is false.

No he didn't. Foreman, Shavers and Liston are in that conversation. Marciano isn't.

11. Braddock had 26 kos out of 46 wins. The fighters who fought him said he hit hard.

The numbers don't lie, he wasn't a puncher and he is a fairy compared to Foreman. Look at the guy in action, he stumbles over his own feet. Look at the short shot he dropped Louis with, you think this would even catch Foreman's attention?:



And you can make all the excuses you want for Braddock, it doesn't change the fact that he was quite terrible. Watch his form and footwork. Your sob story doesn't change that.

Boohoo he fought during the depression. I think America would have a depression if it realized that it breeds the likes of you for the next generation.

You're opinion on the issue is irrelevant.

That's a very credible statement with grammar error and all(I make them too sometimes but "you're" instead of "your"? Should have stayed in school, child).

15. He did have a great left hook. Everyone in the era recognized it and people that pay attention to the sport continue to recognize it.

Actually if you do listen to historians about Galento, they're doing damage control for Louis. They don't hide the fact that he was terrible and pretty much a joke.

Didn't stop him from rocking Louis early in the fight though, there goes the claim that he only got one lucky left hook on Joe. He actually hurt Louis throughout the fight:


And of course the embarrassing KD:


And these were in his prime. I could show a lot more than this too.

Nope, way too vulnerable of a fighter to beat prime George Foreman, it's just not gonna happen. If he's getting this badly hurt against this level of fighters, who are this weak compared to George, he's just not gonna survive. Foreman knocks him out within 2 to 3 rounds.

16. It's Joe Louis not superman. Louis got staggered by Conn in the twelfth round but Foreman was full on knocked down by Jimmy Young who had an astounding 20% ko percentage.

That was a flash KD Foreman was hardly even hurt from, he was already going after Young as he got up. I don't need to show you the immense amount of punishment Foreman took without going down or out in his career, everybody is aware. Louis got put on his ass by these guys with his feet up in the air and he'd need to recover from that for a while. Not even in the same universe kid.

What ****ing style do you think Louis had? You keep saying he couldn't fight how Young and Ali did against Foreman which was boxing him. You say he couldn't fight how Lyle did against Foreman which you think was some fast starting surprise attack. Well how did Louis fight?

No he fought nothing like those fighters. Read the first page where I already explained. Louis stood in front of his opponents, he had great footwork but he wasn't a fast mover. He would be in Foreman's range. He was hittable and relied on athletic advantages against usually unskilled opponents who were the same strength or weaker than him. Why don't you tell me how he'd win and a little more than "Ali stopped him in 8 rounds Louis could do it too Lmaooooo"? You're like an infantile child who just got talked into boxing by an elderly man at a local boxing gym. You're a bit of a joke.

[BKM-]

Now you're getting pieced up by other members of the forum. Ready to throw in the towel?

Keep showing everyone you have the thought process of a child How old are you?

And I counted about 7 other people in this thread who agree that Foreman would beat Louis. Actually most agree with me, I guess you should take your own advice once again.

[abracada]

You are Jack Blackburn and you are preparing a prime Louis to fight up and coming number 1 challenger George Foreman. What would be your plan of action for this fight?

Don’t get hit!

[New England]

I would let Louis be Louis. Louis knew how to fight!

I have always been of the mind that Ali's rope-a-dope was just an act of desperation that worked, and thus only later became a 'brilliant strategy.'

And if Blackburn is aware of it because of Ali, then so would Foreman be aware, and wouldn't have taken the bait a second time.

obviously he'd have been on his toes if he could have, yes. but there are other ways to fight without legs. slugging it out being the low hanging fruit that would get you stopped.


ali was good enough at clinching, had a ref who would let him get away with it on that night, and he was willing and able to take awful punishment, about as much as any other HW we have seen. it was strategy.

[QueensburyRules]

--- so was the cut eye as soon as George landed in Africa that allowed allowed Ali a month to whip the populace against George now held hostage by the army of the muderous dictator that Ali befriended.

And the Dundee loosened ropes, the Sadler drugged George, the Sadler fight plan he devised with Ali, and NO REMATCH for double his largest purse he made for Frazier 1...only in boxing!

[Mr.MojoRisin']

I'm gonna have to make a couple of gifs to illustrate my points some more.



Says the admitted young punk who is acting like a biased old timer who discredit newer generations of boxing. You fell prey to that dogma as a young boy. That's what I meant when you're projecting.

But there's hope for you. I was 15 years old when I first joined this forum in 2006 and fell into the same trap at times. But I became balanced in my thoughts about classic and modern boxing in my early to mid 20s.



Size matters, that's what it has to do with it. Foreman's completely lean at 225lbs and his physicality is being compared to some of Louis' opponents who weren't even shredded at 190. Some of those guys would be cruiserweights in newer era's of HW boxing. They had nowhere near his punching power and strength, and yes part of that is because of the size difference.



Yes I would have to lower my IQ all the way down to 75 to argue on your level.

.

I agree that it becomes less significant at 200lb+ but not with a comparison like 190lbs vs 225+. Secondly, when they first made HW, the overwhelming majority of guys were close to the same size say 190-210. Back then they did not have a lot quality HW's of 230, 240 and even 260+ like the 90s up to today.

The difference is, the Ali's, Foreman's, Holmes were lean 200+ pound men with great heights and reach. They are close to the size of today's HW's because most of today's HW's are overweight or over-muscled from PED's. But the 180-190lb guys from Louis and before, most of them are definitely a weightclass below the aforementioned fighters. Cruiserweights in another era.

And they never made HW because they thought "it didn't matter". They always acknowledged that size advantages between HW's matter. Just not enough to water it down by creating CW, HW and perhaps "SuperHW".

Always going to extremes huh kid? Everything is black and white to you, that's why you're such a dope.



False, the likes of Lyle, Ali and others were close to his size(And Frazier was shorter but Louis' weight, actually he was slightly heavier). Ali and Lyle were very strong men, far stronger than Louis and his opponents. That's why Foreman didn't man handle them as much, but he was still the stronger man. He would bully Louis in the clinch, no question about that. You need to watch more footage of this guy in his prime, he was IMO the strongest HW of all time atleast p4p.



No he didn't. Foreman, Shavers and Liston are in that conversation. Marciano isn't.



The numbers don't lie, he wasn't a puncher and he is a fairy compared to Foreman. Look at the guy in action, he stumbles over his own feet. Look at the short shot he dropped Louis with, you think this would even catch Foreman's attention?:



And you can make all the excuses you want for Braddock, it doesn't change the fact that he was quite terrible. Watch his form and footwork. Your sob story doesn't change that.

Boohoo he fought during the depression. I think America would have a depression if it realized that it breeds the likes of you for the next generation.



That's a very credible statement with grammar error and all(I make them too sometimes but "you're" instead of "your"? Should have stayed in school, child).



Actually if you do listen to historians about Galento, they're doing damage control for Louis. They don't hide the fact that he was terrible and pretty much a joke.

Didn't stop him from rocking Louis early in the fight though, there goes the claim that he only got one lucky left hook on Joe. He actually hurt Louis throughout the fight:


And of course the embarrassing KD:


And these were in his prime. I could show a lot more than this too.

Nope, way too vulnerable of a fighter to beat prime George Foreman, it's just not gonna happen. If he's getting this badly hurt against this level of fighters, who are this weak compared to George, he's just not gonna survive. Foreman knocks him out within 2 to 3 rounds.



That was a flash KD Foreman was hardly even hurt from, he was already going after Young as he got up. I don't need to show you the immense amount of punishment Foreman took without going down or out in his career, everybody is aware. Louis got put on his ass by these guys with his feet up in the air and he'd need to recover from that for a while. Not even in the same universe kid.



No he fought nothing like those fighters. Read the first page where I already explained. Louis stood in front of his opponents, he had great footwork but he wasn't a fast mover. He would be in Foreman's range. He was hittable and relied on athletic advantages against usually unskilled opponents who were the same strength or weaker than him. Why don't you tell me how he'd win and a little more than "Ali stopped him in 8 rounds Louis could do it too Lmaooooo"? You're like an infantile child who just got talked into boxing by an elderly man at a local boxing gym. You're a bit of a joke.

1. Admitted young punk? Sounds like you're upset that I'm slapping you around on the subject. Like I said, unwarranted hostility from you. You're the punk here man. Guys like you live your life in fear so they lash out on the internet. I pity you.
2. Haven't fallen prey to any dogma and I don't discredit newer generations. Imo the 90s was one of the best eras for boxing. Wlad Klitschko is a top 15 atg at the minimum and Wilder/Joshua are fantastic fighters. Just because I don't suck their **** like you do doesn't make me reject the newer generations.
3. Then you're dumb as hell if you couldn't think for yourself and actually come to conclusions based upon what you see from footage.
4. "Physically lean at 225 lbs" Foreman didn't consistently weigh 225 or above until after his fight with Ali. That was 6 fights. Prior to that when he was a monster he was 220. If you think Louis's opponents weren't "shredded" at 190 then Foreman sure as hell wasn't shredded at 220. http://static.boxrec.com/5/5c/Foreman150584795.jpg

Wow so shredded...(sarcasm)

It doesn't matter in the slightest if they were shredded or not. It's a fight not a bodybuilding contest. They aren't comparing body fat percentages. They were in better fighting shape than Foreman ever was thats for damn sure. You're point is asinine and reflects your ignorance about the sport. Foreman is a ****ing monster and anomaly in the sport. He hit harder than Klitschko who is 240. Size has nothing to do with it, he had a gift.

5. If you had an IQ above 75 then yes you would be able to argue on my level. Not to imply that I have an IQ of 75...
6. "190 vs 225+" It doesn't really matter. Marciano was 185 but probably hit harder than hard hitting 230+ fighters. Same with Dempsey. Tyson was 215 but I don't think you're foolish enough to say he wouldn't hit as hard if not harder than say Anthony Joshua who is 35 lbs heavier. Those guys were hard hitters with the right hand, just because they didn't hit just as hard as Foreman or whatever doesn't matter. They hit hard enough to put anyone's lights out which is all that matters.
7. Superheavyweights have been around for the entirety of the division. Jess Willard was the first superheavyweight champ in 1915.
8. We're talking about Louis here. Not some 180-190 lbr. Just for a second you should forget about size and match these guys up based on skill. Who would win based on skill? Then insert size. If you come up with some crappy 230 lb fighter beating an atg that was 190 then you're putting too much stock into weight.
9. I like how you say "they" as if there was some consensus between millions of people or whatever. It was a handful of men who didn't put much thought into it and the millions of fans probably didn't think about it either.
10. Foreman didn't push Ali around like he did smaller guys. Ali was about to out muscle him and tie him up. By that standard you could say Ali was stronger, I wouldn't. Just more skillful.
11. Do you not notice that Lyle nearly flattened Foreman? Foreman's strength was not helping him that night. I have no delusions of Foreman's strength. The dude was a strong mother****er but this idea that he could beat Louis by pushing him around is ridiculous.
12. How can you say Liston hit like Foreman but not Marciano? Marciano knocked out tougher competition and guys that were the exact same size.
13. Every source about Braddock's power says he had a big right hand. Even Max Baer said he had a big right hand.

Braddock was a great counterpuncher too and had better skills than Foreman. Foreman wouldn't be able to land that type of punch on Louis who was also falling into it.
14. Braddock doesn't stumble over his own feet. Do you think that was what he was doing in the gif?
15. You think Braddocks right wouldn't catch Foreman's attention but yet Jimmy Young's did more than that https://streamable.com/lfrif

16. I never said I was perfect and typing walls of text in reply to a moron like you I'm bound to make a mistake here and there. You still understood what I was saying and I'm still kicking your ass in this debate. You've been doing most of the work for me.
17. You call moving out of range to avoid a left hook being "hurt"? That's called fighting smart you dumb ****. You haven't the slightest clue about boxing dude. I'm gonna let you keep talking because that's all that needs to be done to make you look like an idiot.
18. Embarrassing knockdown? What's so embarrassing? Foreman was knocked down by a guy who had a 20% ko ratio. What are your thoughts on that?

19.You aren't here to come to a logical and unbiased conclusion.
20. Galento was referred to as lazy because he had lots of potential and could have been a much better fighter than he was. That's what he gets dragged through the mud for. Not that he was crappy or mediocre.
21. Ali got knocked down by a lot lesser fighters than Foreman. Do you think he beats Foreman? Oh wait...
22. That's wrong. It was not a flash knockdown. Foreman was staggered by the previous punch then the right hand put him down. Just because he went after Young doesn't mean he wasn't still hurt, the only thing he knew was to hit the other guy as hard as he could. That was his only chance of a knockout. Foreman was hardly even engaging the rest of the round, he was tying up and looking at the clock thinking "when the hell can I get out of here".
23. I'll be happy to explain it.

Louis holds many advantages over Foreman; ring iq, speed, athleticism, timing, defensive ability, footwork, and skill. Foreman has the edge in durability, power (as if it matters), and strength. Literally nothing else.

Foreman throws big telegraphed punches which he threw in bunches against smaller fighters, mediocre fighters, and fighters who weren't skilled or fast enough to take advantage of it. Louis would take full advantage of this. If you watch his fights you'll see that big slow guys were made to order for him. He'd slip under Foreman's wild hayemakers and counter with his own. Louis had a better, quicker jab than Foreman and would out jab him the entire way which sets up his overhand right.

Let's be real here, in your mind when you think of this fight you picture Louis crumpling at the first solid punch that Foreman lands. In reality it's a good fight with Foreman having his moment(s) but Louis's speed and skills would make all the difference. Who are Foreman's best wins? Lyle, Norton, and Frazier? Frazier had no jab, Norton was chinny and his style was suicide against punchers, Lyle wasn't very high in the skill department but he could box decent and punched like a mule (Foreman was down twice by him). At the end of the day these guys aren't as good as Louis except for Frazier but his physical attributes made him made to order for Foreman.

Lol @ calling me an infant child when you're supposedly a grown man who constantly gets his panties in a wad over fantasy boxing disagreements. Btw a while ago I saw one of your youtube videos and recognized your name but at the time I didn't have a negative opinion of you. Needless to say your video was ****.

Now I know why.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Keep showing everyone you have the thought process of a child How old are you?

And I counted about 7 other people in this thread who agree that Foreman would beat Louis. Actually most agree with me, I guess you should take your own advice once again.

But you're still getting slapped around by other members of the forum so what are you trying to point out here?

[Mr.MojoRisin']

his greatness relies on his resume/longevity.

Hmm that's interesting because you directly refute your own claim:

Foreman's completely lean at 225lbs and his physicality is being compared to some of Louis' opponents who weren't even shredded at 190. Some of those guys would be cruiserweights in newer era's of HW boxing.

And you can make all the excuses you want for Braddock, it doesn't change the fact that he was quite terrible.

Actually if you do listen to historians about Galento, they're doing damage control for Louis. They don't hide the fact that he was terrible and pretty much a joke.

If he's getting this badly hurt against this level of fighters, who are this weak compared to George, he's just not gonna survive.

You describe his opponents as weak, terrible, a joke, quite terrible, even going so far as to say that one of them stumbles over his own feet normally. You think opponents like that make a fighter great?

[HOUDINI563]

Galento was a FEARED puncher in the 1930's. Tremendous left hook power. I believe Louis was the only man ever to knock Galento down.

Schmeling caused a sensation when he came to the US. He drew record crowds. He was also one of the most powerful punchers of that era. From 1928 to 1938 he was either a top contender or hwt champion. His KO of Louis was no fluke. Max was a great calculating fighter and fought the perfect fight plan to beat Louis in 36.