Dempsey vs. Marciano

[johnbook]

No. Ali was not stopping Frazier in round two of their second bout.

It was not expected that Ali would best Frazier in75. Odds going into the fight were close. But what’s important is what actually occurred. A No 1 contender and former champion took Ali to the brink yet he came back to win. This bout convinced the knowledgeable historians that Ali deserved ATG ranking.

I disagree. Frazier was quite hurt and there was a minute to go and Ali was a great finisher and Frazier was known--see vs Bonavena--that he often took 2 rounds to get "smokin". I am sure there would have been at least a KD.

I also recall something little cited nowadays.

Ali was pissed and thought it was deliberate--Perez's halting as no one else heard a "phantom bell."©

Ali sued Perez claiming it was deliberate. The judge tossed the suit with reasoning that it was impossible to prove that it wasn't a mistake without malice aforethought. From what I know now I wonder if an appeal might have found that that's a question for a jury to decide. But Ali did not appeal.

No, I don't have a link, but followed the matter in the papers.

[johnbook]

No. Ali was not stopping Frazier in round two of their second bout.

It was not expected that Ali would best Frazier in75. Odds going into the fight were close. But what’s important is what actually occurred. A No 1 contender and former champion took Ali to the brink yet he came back to win. This bout convinced the knowledgeable historians that Ali deserved ATG ranking.

http://www.boxing.com/the_myth_of_th...n_manilla.html
Odds in fact were 8:5 for Ali. [I don't necessarily agree with some things in that article. I saw it live on cc theatre. It was awesome give and take.]
Ali was the favorite and was not expected to have a tough time at that PIT.

Yes it was his greatest from the brink victory.

[Zaroku]

they both were beasts back in da day. who do you think was better?

Excellent question my brother... I’d hate to see either of them warriors lose... I weak like that...

When Sanchez beat Gomez... I was sad the fought... I love the sport..

Somebody always has to lose...

I love seeing two guys throw down, and becomes friends after..

Gatti & Ward... tow men... I cried when Gatti got murdered... I’m an old cry baby.

[HOUDINI563]

The myth of Manilia article is trash. Written by a writer seeking attention. Lots of mistakes in addition. Ali was very close to losing that bout but surged out of nowhere to overwhelm Joe. Another bout I watched live. Tremendously exciting bout. REAL boxing.

[Zmerai Khan]

Ghost.... you don’t know what you are talking about.

Ali was not rated as an ATG by most in 1972. Why? His career was yet over. KNOWLEDGEABLE historians are PATIENT and DO NOT jump to conclusion until all boxes are checked. In 1974 Ali reworn the hwt championship by koing a fighter thought to be unbeatable. Ali however had yet to prove himself in a life or death struggle with a top opponent. That occurred in 1975 when he stopped Frazier in a fightmost would have lost. THIS cemented Ali as a premier top ATG hwt champion as he exhibited those characteristics EXPECTED of ATG fighters. Ali by mid 1970’s was then considered universally at least a top ten ATG hwt champion. His stock has only risen since.

I'm pretty sure we all know someone who glorifies the pre-exile Ali as superior to the post exile version. His opposition was weaker but he put on more dynamic and lop-sided performances.

I'm not in that camp. Pretty much no knowledgeable fan is in that camp. But we can agree we were watching the makings of the best Heavyweight ever.

I don't believe Fleischer failed to see that. But I do believe he had several reasons to be in denial.

[HOUDINI563]

Again start knowing your history. Ali was not rated by most in the top ten all time in 1972. Reasons are as given. Ring was the only source who maintained Ali AS CHAMPION when everyone else had stripped him. This was specifically Fleischer decision to do so until Ali officially retired in 1970. Learn boxing history.

[HOUDINI563]

Ali Frazier 3 odds were 6-5 Ali not 8-5. Ring record book from 75, 76 and 77 which I have in my possession list all the odds of hwt championship bouts.