How would dempsey do against todays Heavyweights?

[The Old LefHook]

Do contemporary jazz musicians "swing," better than the old timers could ever have hoped to? Of course they do not. A limit is reached, the most talented humans are capable of only so much. In boxing, some pretty crude attributes can legitimately be called talent. The talent to bust heads comes partially from genetics and partially from practice. Dempsey got much more practice than most before he even became a pro boxer. It takes a churl to overlook his natural disposition and aptitude for his profession.

The sleep inducing apocryphal tale of Dempsey's loaded gloves has been debunked more times than a popular whore. Dempsey knew the mechanics of punching. He had practiced the moves until they were instinctive. Read his forking book online free!

Perhaps our local galoot fan club would be so kind to take the trouble to explain why Dempsey would not even do well against today's smaller heavyweights, forget about today's behemoths for a moment. No? Sure, go ahead, try. Embarrass yourselves. No?

Maybe, I say perhaps, just perhaps, Dempsey would not defeat today's galoots. Because I also consider it pretty unreasonable to expect featherweights to whip middleweights, which is exactly the same thing as expecting Dempsey to beat modern galoot heavyweights. Dempsey did, however, beat the galoot heavy of his day who was good enough to become champion and was not the scrub most halfwits try to make him out to be. I see nothing to indicate that Willard could not fight Joseph Parker on at least even terms.

Just the way Duran shocked people by competing well with the likes of Hagler, I believe Dempsey would surprise boxing fans against our galoots. He might not win, he probably would not win. But like Duran he would prove people wrong by being more competitive against much bigger men than they believed beforehand he would be. If Jack avoided being KO'd, folks would be so shocked that the Goldberg effect would set in and many people would believe Jack had stolen a close decision.

I never rule out natural talent and aptitude. I already know Jack was a better P4P fighter than any of the galoots (with the possible exception of Lewis) has proven to be. The only real question is: how much size can Jack's superior aptitude compensate for, what combination of size and talent can that superior aptitude deal with.

Just as Duran's aptitude for fighting was higher than even almost all other ATGs, I believe Dempsey's was very high as well.

[BattlingNelson]

Does this tape exist today? It would be odd if the technology was lost to us, yet I have heard about no boxing prohibition against the use of any such tape. You would think the dirty trick would have reappeared by now, being even harder to detect, but it hasn't. Which makes me think it's an apocryphal story.

Bicycle tape was often used as a dirty trick among the old timers.

In an article from The San Francisco Call (1910) I found an article going through the tricks of the trade of the prize fighters. The article tells about the psychological warfare of Bob Fitzsimmons, Tommy Ryan, 'Kid' McCoy and others. This is stuff that is well known today as is hitting after the bell and so on.

I have made excerpts below telling of dirty tricks which isn't possible today and goes to show the nasty business the fightgame was. This is about 'Kid' McCoy:

"The rosin on the glove.
Notice the "Kid," for instance, lithe and amiable, strolling about the ring, immediately prior to a professional engagement. There are little heaps of rosin scattered about, the canvas-stretched floor, and the "Kid" wipes his feet in them, kicks them playfully, without the least apparent preconceived intent in the world. - He smiles at his friends and pleasantly, receives their applause. But the rosin in the ring becomes gradually "accelerated" in the direction of his corner, if there be none already, there.

The gloves have been chosen; and the seconds crowd about their men, carefully pushing the horsehair padding away from the center. They bend over
to fix them on the principle that accidents will sometimes happen —in fact they always happen in the "Kid's" corner. Before he has an opportunity, to
assume them they drop regularly into that rosinheap— drop there and are squeezed and twisted into it ere they are picked up and finally assumed. And a rosined glove may be made to cut like a knife in the hands of a McCoy. Infact it often has cut like a knife, and in nicely calculated places, too. 'This is
but a single one in the sum of tricks McCoy has practiced.

Bicycle tape.
It was McCoy too, who introduced the ingenious practice of putting a heavy layer of bicycle tape upon his hands. Then the "Kid," in dressinggown, would
pleasantly argue in the center of the ring as to the desirability of that tape's removal— would argue till the tape had become hardened like iron. He would
then smilingly take off as much of the tape as was possible. But bicycle tape has the unforlunate, qualification of adhering, when heated,and the final strand would still stay on.

McCoy would grirnace helplessly and his opponent would usually overlook the last and most dangerous strand of all. McCoy's knuckles would, however, be protected with bands like iron, which a trick of the trade had made possible. This ingenious little device has been the occasion of making the pugilist of the
present time doubly careful as to the hand bandages of an opponent. It is the legacy. of,McCoy to his profession."

The article ends with this:

"After such instances of artistry as these it would be almost inartistic to descend to the comparative crudeness of a "Young" Corbett, whose virulence and reflective character of language regularly put his opponents into a frenzy which made them easy to defeat or yet the unshaven and artificially wired
condition of a Battling Nelson's hair, with which to bore into an opponent's eyes. There could only be stated that one example of cunning, when an opponent of the latter went into a contest with the lightweight champion with gloves which were in an extremely acidulated condition. These completely blinded the courageous but human Battler and almost
defeated him.

It is, however, sufficient to indicate the tricks of a trade which is apparently severe in more ways than one. Most of these tricks are unfair, yes; but what
tricks are not? Many gentlemen of many desirable professions live in glass houses, it seems. Can they afford to throw stones at gentlemanly pugilists?"


The article can be found here: http://www.loc.gov/chroniclingameric...ort=&mode=list

And here's a pic of Battling Nelson showing the wear and tear of his style:

[Dempsey-Louis]

Bicycle tape was often used as a dirty trick among the old timers.

Thank you for the posts.

I definitely concede that fixing gloves has always been part of the game. Panama Lewis should still be in jail.

The issue I have is with this 'magic adhesive tape' that hardens when wet. Which is the claim of that anecdote. I believe it is the nonsense of just one more self aggrandizing trainer.

The use of the bicycle tape is interesting though; Kid McCoy is just an out and out cheat. A real old timer.

But note it doesn't involve any magic transition after the tape has been covered by the glove, the tape is harder going in. The trick there was getting by inspection and then not being able to take it off once caught (once wet).

The second claim regarding your name sake didn't really say anything much, only a claim that the opponent's gloves were in an "exremely acidulated condition" [SIC] that is just a vague statement which seems part of a romanticized piece.

But again I concede and I agree there has always been glove fixing, but to me this magic adhesive tape seems bogus. A tape that passes inspection, but later becomes lethal. I don't think it existed.

[The Old LefHook]

I doubt it exists as well. One rumor can last forever. Can you imagine an amateur scuffling around at an active archaeological dig? That is how most ordinary folks understand the processes of research. You revive some ancient rumors and start running with the ball.

What I do feel pretty comfortable with is that Doc Kearns was about as unethical and greedy as a trainer/manager can get. I would never take anything Kearns said at face value. Now, the evidence is what Doc Kearns had to say?

The character of many boxing personnel over the decades does not lend comfort to those looking for truth. Remember, that anything at all can be written. Reading it does not mean someone has done research. This is a much abused word these days. People trying out new search words believe they are doing scholarly research.

Dempsey advocates have had to defend their man for years from the jealous calumny of detractors. At one time the notion even had to be dispelled that a blemish in the photo on the canvas was actually a steel bolt Jack had surreptitiously dropped after he had done his dirty work on poor Willard. If caught he just could have said: "Who me? I didn't drop nuttin'. Ask those eighty thousand people."

That said, it is OK to reopen the file as a cold case. Because we still do not know the truth.

I do not assume Dempsey was such a marvelous sportsman and person that he would immediately reject any idea of fixing his gloves. Street ethics were more flexible then. People did anything to survive and justified it by their survival.

Personally, I would give it about a 50-50 chance of being true. Unfortunately, 50-50 is the most uncertain state of knowledge. Almost certainly, that is where this question will remain for a good while. Until scientists invent a viable time machine that at least let's us view the past, we will never know the full truth of the past. For moderns to believe this machine will ever be invented is as unlikely as Pilgrims believing men of earth would someday fly and visit the moon, perform heart transplants and view events remotely from the far side of the earth.

I do believe we will someday know.You and I may not, but humans will have someday unsorted the truth, just as they will know who Jack the Ripper was. How far away from now is that? Probably less than we think. We always tend to underestimate the pace of scientific progress. 200 years or less should do it. Actually, with cryonic suspension now closer than ever to possible, you and I just might be back around 200 years from now for a dose of historical truth.

[billeau2]

Let's get something straight--Haye is a a juicer, plain and simple. Five or six years later, most of you look like churls from your old posts. Your hero Haye never did anything in heavyweight fights but run and hide. He never had a significant heavyweight victory. But given the chance, many idiots on here would still praise him and speak of him with wonder. Why, he's fast. His career is also almost over, and he did nothing but a lot of blabber. All but forgotten. And unless he KOs Dempsey with the first punch, he ain't winning.

The biggest kick in the face though you have not mentioned lefty: Haye lost to a guy who was SMALLER THAN DEMPSEY

[billeau2]

Dempsey should time travel to now. We want him to see queers on the streets holding hands and inducted into the armed services. When he sees how moderns pule and squall, his confidence is sure to grow.

Lol lol lol Had to respond to this again.

"No Mr Dempsey that is the transgender bathroom...the one next to it is for hipster dads that want to change diapers."

[travestyny]

The issue I have is with this 'magic adhesive tape' that hardens when wet. Which is the claim of that anecdote. I believe it is the nonsense of just one more self aggrandizing trainer.

............

But note it doesn't involve any magic transition after the tape has been covered by the glove, the tape is harder going in. The trick there was getting by inspection and then not being able to take it off once caught (once wet).

.............

But again I concede and I agree there has always been glove fixing, but to me this magic adhesive tape seems bogus. A tape that passes inspection, but later becomes lethal. I don't think it existed.

I doubt it exists as well. One rumor can last forever. Can you imagine an amateur scuffling around at an active archaeological dig? That is how most ordinary folks understand the processes of research. You revive some ancient rumors and start running with the ball.

......

The character of many boxing personnel over the decades does not lend comfort to those looking for truth. Remember, that anything at all can be written. Reading it does not mean someone has done research. This is a much abused word these days. People trying out new search words believe they are doing scholarly research.

Guys, nowhere did the quotation mention anything about the tape having to be wet for it to harden.

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

What is meant by Willard inspecting the wraps, is simply that he leaned forward and looked closely at them, as he reportedly did in the ring before the fight.

And actually, the article that Battling Nelson shared, which Dempsey-Louis said was plausible, says specifically that McCoy argued in the middle of the ring about the tape "until it hardened." This makes it clear that the tape becomes hard over time, possibly when "heated" as it also states that the tape adheres when heated.

Then the "Kid," in dressinggown, would
pleasantly argue in the center of the ring as to the desirability of that tape's removal— would argue till the tape had become hardened like iron.

But bicycle tape has the unfortunate, qualification of adhering, when heated, and the final strand would still stay on.

Finally, it's not like this interview with the trainer who wrapped his hands, Jimmy DeForest, came about years and years after the incident. The quotation is from less than a year after the fight! Again, this is NOT the Doc Kearns accusation. It is a direct quotation from the trainer who wrapped Dempsey's hands and who was STILL working with him at that time, Jimmy DeForest.

The clipping, exhumed by S.J. Riccardi, contains a column that Joe Vila, one of the ” more noted boxing authorities of his day, wrote for The New York Evening Sun June 30, 1920. What gives It extra credence is that it appeared slightly less than a year after Dempsey,. had massacred the Pottawatomie Giant.
http://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/09/sp...the-times.html

I understand that you guys may look up to Dempsey, but the evidence is staring you right in the face.


By the way, the person that The Old Left Hook is comparing to an amateur, Arthur Daley, the writer of the article that details what was said in the interview, was a Pulitzer Prize winner and also named sports writer of the year in 1964. His first major assignment was the Dempsey-Tunney rematch.

His writing earned him a Pulitzer Prize in 1956 for "outstanding coverage and commentary on the world of sports" in the category of "Local Reporting, No Edition Time". The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association named him "Sportswriter of the Year" in 1963, and added him to its Hall of Fame in 1976

And the original piece was written by Joe Vila, who was the first sportswriter to use a typewriter at ringside doing round by round coverage and also went into the baseball Hall of Fame.

Vila has been regarded as one of the most influential sportswriters during the first third of the 20th century, while setting fundamental changes in sports coverage during the decades to come.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Guys, nowhere did the quotation mention anything about the tape having to be wet for it to harden.



What is meant by Willard inspecting the wraps, is simply that he leaned forward and looked closely at them, as he reportedly did in the ring before the fight.

And actually, the article that Battling Nelson shared, which Dempsey-Louis said was plausible, says specifically that McCoy argued in the middle of the ring about the tape "until it hardened." This makes it clear that the tape becomes hard over time, possibly when "heated" as it also states that the tape adheres when heated.



Finally, it's not like this interview with the trainer who wrapped his hands, Jimmy DeForest, came about years and years after the incident. The quotation is from less than a year after the fight! Again, this is NOT the Doc Kearns accusation. It is a direct quotation from the trainer who wrapped Dempsey's hands and who was STILL working with him at that time, Jimmy DeForest.




I understand that you guys may look up to Dempsey, but the evidence is staring you right in the face.


By the way, the person that The Old Left Hook is comparing to an amateur, Arthur Daley, the writer of the article that details what was said in the interview, was a Pulitzer Prize winner and also named sports writer of the year in 1964. His first major assignment was the Dempsey-Tunney rematch.



And the original piece was written by Joe Vila, who was the first sportswriter to use a typewriter at ringside doing round by round coverage and also went into the baseball Hall of Fame.

It is not a matter of looking up to Dempsey it is just that these accusations never come with any empirical evidence. One finds themself trying to prove a negative against an unproven accusation.

Although I see where you said I was confused about the 'getting wet part.' Sorry.

The supposed heat in Havana 1915 (Johnson-Willard) is another good example of a rumor that just won't go away.

I can point to dozens of books, quotes, and websites that claim it was over 100 degrees that day, (one makes the ridiculous claim that it was 105 degrees) but in fact that day in Havana the temperature was in the mid-seventies with light clouds.

Johnson had reason to lie about the heat, he needed an excuse and his lie got such legs under it, that today it is considered fact. (The only website that doesn't make the silly claim is BoxRec, no one else ever checked, they just repeated the story.)

I never meant to call anyone an amateur, but winning a Pulitzer Prize doesn't necessarily make someone a good historian. Much of what got into the papers (like today's media) is 'yellow' (sensationalized) reporting. Scandal and conspiracies sell newspapers; because something is reported only tells us that someone actually said it, not that it happened. But see, I am back to trying to prove a negative and that's impossible.

In the Dempsey case physical evidence is now, of course, impossible to gain, but I need at least one source that doesn't have a motive to lie; all these claims about doctoring Dempsey's gloves alway come from someone who wants to take partial credit for Dempsey's victory. Managers and trainers are always doing that.

Here's another quick one, Angelo Dundee never had to pull Ali from his stool the night Ali got liniment in his eyes. Ali stood up on his own (blinking) and was willing to fight. For years Dundee told the story how Ali wanted to quit, how he pulled Ali from his stool and then took the stool away so he wouldn't sit back down. All bogus, he just wanted to make himself important. Watch the film, someone else pulls the stool away well after Ali has already been walking around trying to clear his eyes.

Before I can buy into the Dempsey story I need to hear a first-hand witnessed account, from someone who isn't in the position to inflate his own worth by claiming a fix. When it comes to these kinds of claims managers and trainers are useless sources, they are often self-aggrandizing yarns. Managers and trainers are always trying to take partial credit for their fighters victories, that's why they always talk in first-person plural "we" as if they were actually fighting the fight along side their fighter.

[travestyny]

It is not a matter of looking up to Dempsey it is just that these accusations never come with any empirical evidence. One finds themself trying to prove a negative against an unproven accusation.

Although I see where you said I was confused about the 'getting wet part.' Sorry.

The supposed heat in Havana 1915 (Johnson-Willard) is another good example of a rumor that just won't go away.

I can point to dozens of books, quotes, and websites that claim it was over 100 degrees that day, (one makes the ridiculous claim that it was 105 degrees) but in fact that day in Havana the temperature was in the mid-seventies with light clouds.

Johnson had reason to lie about the heat, he needed an excuse and his lie got such legs under it, that today it is considered fact. (The only website that doesn't make the silly claim is BoxRec, no one else ever checked, they just repeated the story.)

I never meant to call anyone an amateur, but winning a Pulitzer Prize doesn't necessarily make someone a good historian. Much of what got into the papers (like today's media) is 'yellow' (sensationalized) reporting. Scandal and conspiracies sell newspapers; because something is reported only tells us that someone actually said it, not that it happened. But see, I am back to trying to prove a negative and that's impossible.

In the Dempsey case physical evidence is now, of course, impossible to gain, but I need at least one source that doesn't have a motive to lie; all these claims about doctoring Dempsey's gloves alway come from someone who wants to take partial credit for Dempsey's victory. Managers and trainers are always doing that.

Here's another quick one, Angelo Dundee never had to pull Ali from his stool the night Ali got liniment in his eyes. Ali stood up on his own (blinking) and was willing to fight. For years Dundee told the story how Ali wanted to quit, how he pulled Ali from his stool and then took the stool away so he wouldn't sit back down. All bogus, he just wanted to make himself important. Watch the film, someone else pulls the stool away well after Ali has already been walking around trying to clear his eyes.

Before I can buy into the Dempsey story I need to hear a first-hand witnessed account, from someone who isn't in the position to inflate his own worth by claiming a fix. When it comes to these kinds of claims managers and trainers are useless sources, they are often self-aggrandizing yarns. Managers and trainers are always trying to take partial credit for their fighters victories, that's why they always talk in first-person plural "we" as if they were actually fighting the fight along side their fighter.

No no, it wasn't you that compared the writer to an amateur. It was The Old Left Hook.


But the reason that I thought maybe your reasoning for not believing this story was because of you looking up to Dempsey (besides of course having his name in your handle) is because you said that McCoy is just an outright cheat, but McCoy was also trained by DeForest who said that he wrapped their hands with the same exact thing.

This was less than a year after the fight that the trainer said this, and Dempsey's career wasn't over. It was before the Carpentier fight. And the trainer was defending Dempsey from accusations that Dempsey used aluminum pads on his knuckles, which makes it clear that there was already suspicion about the wraps at that time.

So we have a trainer who said he used this tape to cause unusual damage with another fighter, claims he also used it for Dempsey at the time that he was still training Dempsey, and we have evidence that people were suspicious about Dempsey's wraps even before the plaster of paris story.

I just don't see what is so unrealistic or how you can say the trainer is lying just to make himself seem great. If he wanted to do that, he could just talk about strategy. This is the paragraph that was immediately before the paragraph about wrapping Dempsey's hands:

“Dempsey followed my instructions to the letter,” said DeForest. “I had told him that after landing six lefts to cut the right loose for Willard's heart. The first time Jack drove the right home it was all over. Willard's heart was broken and he couldn't withstand a continuation of such terrific body punches. Dempsey's left did great execution but his right really settled the issue,

He could have just stopped there, but he chose to defend Dempsey against the aluminum pads accusation. Why do you believe that McCoy used a similar trick but not Dempsey? That's what I'm not following.


If you don't believe the man who directly wrapped his hands....I don't know whom you would believe besides Dempsey himself.

[phallus]

Dempsey should time travel to now. We want him to see queers on the streets holding hands and inducted into the armed services. When he sees how moderns pule and squall, his confidence is sure to grow.

Dempsey would probably demolish most of them

it's easy to forget how tough dempsey was, when he was 14 he ran away from home and became a hobo, riding around on trains looking for hard labor jobs and fighting grown men for food. even with steroids and a few inches in height to their advantage, i'd put my money on dempsey against most of today's hw "champions". he'd beat them down much like he did jess willard, some of these guys are only marginally more skilled than he was and way less tough.