China puts 1,000,000 muslims in prison camps

[DARKSEID]

It's the only way to deal with them. You must be bereft of the history of Muslims. I suggest you start reading up.

Wow, the irony, you're telling him to read up when your own position is one of supreme ignorance? Have you ever met a muslim family?

My girlfriend in high school was lebanese and i ate dinner with her family, spent time with them, went on vacation with them and spent holidays with them.

They were exactly the same as any other family.

[DARKSEID]

I know the question wasn't delivered at me, but I don't think it is as simple as being for - or - against religious freedom and liberty.

Life isn't binary. You can support both of those freedoms, but put precedence on other ideals as well.

Most ideals come into conflict with other ideals at some point. Issues of freedom are rife with this, and one type of freedom often conflicts with other types.

I don't think anyone can disagree with the fact that Islam is cancer. That it is the enemy of freedom. That humanity would be better off with Islam disappearing. That humanity will never be truly safe while Islam exists.

The same can be said for most religions, that is true, but Islam's particularly aggressive fundamentals make it more of an issue.

The question is - how to eradicate that cancer?

IMHO the best solution that anyone could hope for is for muslims to give up their religion. To cast it off, like the hideous piece of shit it is.

No suffering, no death, no conflict. Just boom, gone.

Of course, this won't happen. Cancer doesn't cure itself.

Is there a way that the rest of humanity can help them to cast away their religion? Hardly - the rest of the world is mired in their own religious nonsense - and you can't save a drowning person if you are also drowning.

I can't say China's actions are wrong. On an individual level, many, many relatively blameless muslim individuals will be suffering horribly for it. I hate that. I hate that blameless children will be suffering.

Yet I can't blame China for taking this action. The blame is put on the existence of islam, and the failings of human nature that have let it flourish.

Oh my God, stop the melodrama. Islam is a cancer? Islamic peiple and christian people or whatever religion are exactly the same.

Most of them don't even believe or follow in their own religion.

[Lomasexual]

Oh my God, stop the melodrama. Islam is a cancer? Islamic peiple and christian people or whatever religion are exactly the same.

Most of them don't even believe or follow in their own religion.

Don't be ignorant. It's ugly and unproductive.

Islam is not the same as other religions. They all suck copious amounts of dick, but Islam is 'the motherlode of bad ideas' as expressed so eloquently by Sam Harris.

There are plenty of good people who are muslim or christian - and they are good despite their religion, not because of it.

The more fundamentalist they become, the worse they are.

If the fundamentals of something are so bad, how can what is built on top of that foundation be good? It can't.

If your best response is that "they can be good if they don't even believe in it" then that shows just how bad a belief system it is.

[Lomasexual]

The answer is simple.

Take the long view.

They will join the mainstream themselves over time as we welcome them in.

I dont like saying this, but Christianity (in its various forms) was once what you just called a 'cancer'. Thats fact.

But it wasnt 'eradicated'.

Over time people evolved and practiced Christianity in a more humane way.

No.

You are working on the assumption that religions are more or less the same, and that they are predictable and will follow the same trajectory.

This is totally, totally wrong.

Christianity mellowed after something know as the 'reformation'. This was a change that went throughout their religion which was aimed at returning christianity to its roots.

Since the roots of christianity is the Jesus myth, that reformation was a benign enough event - because he is a benign enough character.

The worst parts of christianity almost all come from its inability to fully divorce itself from the old testament - a work which is almost as vile as the koran and hadith.

An islamic 'reformation', returning to the example of Mo would have the exact opposite effect. You think Wahabism is bad? Crank that up 1000 fold.

The two central figures of the respective faiths could not be more different.
Jesus Christ was written to be all about peace, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and sacrifice. The worst thing he did was throw over some tables, curse a fig tree, kill some pigs to cure a demonic possession, and talk about pitting families against each other.

Mo was a rapist, serial pedophile, murderer, slaver. He is one of the vilest people in history.

Islam cannot be reformed. The foundation is too atrocious for that to ever happen.

[New England]

No.

You are working on the assumption that religions are more or less the same, and that they are predictable and will follow the same trajectory.

This is totally, totally wrong.

Christianity mellowed after something know as the 'reformation'. This was a change that went throughout their religion which was aimed at returning christianity to its roots.

Since the roots of christianity is the Jesus myth, that reformation was a benign enough event - because he is a benign enough character.

The worst parts of christianity almost all come from its inability to fully divorce itself from the old testament - a work which is almost as vile as the koran and hadith.

An islamic 'reformation', returning to the example of Mo would have the exact opposite effect. You think Wahabism is bad? Crank that up 1000 fold.

The two central figures of the respective faiths could not be more different.
Jesus Christ was written to be all about peace, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and sacrifice. The worst thing he did was throw over some tables, curse a fig tree, kill some pigs to cure a demonic possession, and talk about pitting families against each other.

Mo was a rapist, serial pedophile, murderer, slaver. He is one of the vilest people in history.

Islam cannot be reformed. The foundation is too atrocious for that to ever happen.

have you read revelation?

you can't pick and choose which aspects of the bible you think are allegorical [the bible was written directly in response to and in the context of centuries of roman imperialism,] and which are not! what happens in revelation?

what does god do in revelation ? hand out flowers?


it's a reality that the "fundamental" parts of the muslim world are predominantly in arid, mountainous areas or deserts, or both. people lived in villages, many still do. it's an underdeveloped part of the world. women marry young, they're subservient to men, and they have lots of kids. that's a universal theme you see in underdeveloped, village and rural living in agrarian societies. still see it in largely christian south america. still see it in africa, both muslim and nonmuslim. FFS women have to walk 5 miles a day to get water! it's a different world and you cannot attribute all "backwardness" to a religion! again, look at and study the developing world, its history, these are themes you will find eveywhere! post industrial societies have a lot more use for women than agrarian ones. unless you're an oil billionaire there's nothing out there in lots of the "fundamental" parts of the muslim world. go scratch a living off of a rock and try and get "civilized" when you cannot read!

you think they're marrying nine year olds in downtown singapore? Dubai? that places makes manhattan look cheap!


until china started manufacturing for america they had a child mortality rate int the f#cking 20's. people lived in backward ass, hole in teh ground villiages. they had famine, plague. if you do enough business with chinese you'll literally see remnants of that culture, they're, "not quite there yet." and here they are rounding up muslims 2-3 generations later

irony, thy name is general gau chicken

[Lomasexual]

have you read revelation?

you can't pick and choose which aspects of the bible you think are allegorical [the bible was written directly in response to and in the context of centuries of roman imperialism,] and which are not! what happens in revelation?

what does god do in revelation ? hand out flowers?

I did say that the worst parts 'almost' all come from the old testament.

Yeah, there is bad stuff in the new testament too. The book of revelation is messed up, and I know people who literally believe all of that stuff will be happening in their lifetime.

Don't go thinking I'm an apologist for christianity. I think it is a pile of shit. I just don't think that people can assume that all religions are basically the same.

it's a reality that the "fundamental" parts of the muslim world are predominantly in arid, mountainous areas or deserts, or both. people lived in villages, many still do. it's an underdeveloped part of the world. women marry young, they're subservient to men, and they have lots of kids. that's a universal theme you see in underdeveloped, village and rural living in agrarian societies. still see it in largely christian south america. still see it in africa, both muslim and nonmuslim. FFS women have to walk 5 miles a day to get water! it's a different world and you cannot attribute all "backwardness" to a religion! again, look at and study the developing world, its history, these are themes you will find eveywhere! post industrial societies have a lot more use for women than agrarian ones. unless you're an oil billionaire there's nothing out there in lots of the "fundamental" parts of the muslim world. go scratch a living off of a rock and try and get "civilized" when you cannot read!

you think they're marrying nine year olds in downtown singapore? Dubai? that places makes manhattan look cheap!


until china started manufacturing for america they had a child mortality rate int the f#cking 20's. people lived in backward ass, hole in teh ground villiages. they had famine, plague. if you do enough business with chinese you'll literally see remnants of that culture, they're, "not quite there yet." and here they are rounding up muslims 2-3 generations later

irony, thy name is general gau chicken

There are plenty of problems facing people. Poverty and illiteracy are real issues too. There is no doubt of that.

Islam is another problem, and while you seem to be saying it is caused by poverty and illiteracy, it also causes them as well. It is a vicious circle.

It isn't a coincidence that the arabic world went from being at the forefront of modern thinking and invention to being centuries behind.

It isn't coincidence that at the same time the Jewish people, in the same environment, flourished intellectually.

[AllBoxingAD]

No.

You are working on the assumption that religions are more or less the same, and that they are predictable and will follow the same trajectory.

This is totally, totally wrong.

Christianity mellowed after something know as the 'reformation'. This was a change that went throughout their religion which was aimed at returning christianity to its roots.

Since the roots of christianity is the Jesus myth, that reformation was a benign enough event - because he is a benign enough character.

The worst parts of christianity almost all come from its inability to fully divorce itself from the old testament - a work which is almost as vile as the koran and hadith.

An islamic 'reformation', returning to the example of Mo would have the exact opposite effect. You think Wahabism is bad? Crank that up 1000 fold.

The two central figures of the respective faiths could not be more different.
Jesus Christ was written to be all about peace, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and sacrifice. The worst thing he did was throw over some tables, curse a fig tree, kill some pigs to cure a demonic possession, and talk about pitting families against each other.

Mo was a rapist, serial pedophile, murderer, slaver. He is one of the vilest people in history.

Islam cannot be reformed. The foundation is too atrocious for that to ever happen.

No its the complete opposite. Its not Islam that will change, its how muslims chose to practice it.

Im not working on the assumption that all religions are more or less the same. Im working on the assumption that human beings are exposed to more things in their lives then just religion. Our experiences with the rest of the world impacts how we practice our religion at home.

People practicing islam in a common sense, 21st century kind of way is already happening. 3.5 million of them in the states are not out here living like Mohammed did.

Theres alot of factors involved like education, access to information, media, the direction their leaders want to go into, wars in their region... It doesnt start and end with the words of the quoran.

[5burowz]

Wow, the irony, you're telling him to read up when your own position is one of supreme ignorance? Have you ever met a muslim family?

My girlfriend in high school was lebanese and i ate dinner with her family, spent time with them, went on vacation with them and spent holidays with them.

They were exactly the same as any other family.

Learn your Islam, buddy boy.

[Lomasexual]

No its the complete opposite. Its not Islam that will change, its how muslims chose to practice it.

Im not working on the assumption that all religions are more or less the same. Im working on the assumption that human beings are exposed to more things in their lives then just religion. Our experiences with the rest of the world impacts how we practice our religion at home.

People practicing islam in a common sense, 21st century kind of way is already happening. 3.5 million of them in the states are not out here living like Mohammed did.

Theres alot of factors involved like education, access to information, media, the direction their leaders want to go into, wars in their region... It doesnt start and end with the words of the quoran.

I get what you are saying, and I see how it seems plausible.

I also agree that the more people can be separated from the Koran, the better it is for everyone.

Your position seems to be that if people call themselves muslim, but aren't really muslim, then everything is ok - and that you expect this to happen more and more.

The problem is that you cannot divorce islam from the Koran, the surah, the hadith.

'Moderate' practitioners of religions like to believe that they have no responsibility for the extremists or fundamentalists. They couldn't be more wrong.

You can't go around saying that being a muslim (or being a christian etc) is the best, most important, most ethical and moral thing - without a lot of people thinking that they then have to be the most islamic or the most christian.
'Moderate' parents raising their kids into their religion, governments who spruik their religious convictions - from the family level to the wider community, all reinforcing the idea that being muslim (or christian) is the best of things - this will push people, without fail, to fundamentalism.

Because how do you become the most muslim? The best of the best? You follow the koranic teachings more strictly than the others around you.

And the moderates are very, very often unwilling to do anything about it. Because they know that the fundamentalists are more muslim (or christian) than they themselves are. The fundamentalists know more about the religion, they are more devoted, more devout - they are almost impossible to challenge on theological grounds. The moderate practitioners both create the fundamentalists and then are unwilling or incapable of addressing the problem.

This doesn't just mean a worrying fringe of terrorists etc. It means that governments can get in on hardline religious approaches. Just have a look at Turkey. How many 'moderates' do you think have given Erdogan enough support to be where he is today, doing what he is doing?
In the type of rich community you talk about, in the USA with its 'moderate' christians, fundamentalist nutjob politicians are still considered more electable than atheists.

You say that islam doesn't begin and end with the Koran, but it does. They are inseparable. More than that - they are the same thing. Islam is the Koran (and hadith etc).