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Old 08-18-2019, 11:55 AM #11
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
Foreman claims his trainer, Dick Saddler (Sandy's brother) doped him up before the fight.

The Panama Lewis bottle of sumthin sumthin is the ready excuse for why Arguello lost to Pryor. Why doesn't this excuse get much currency?

Is Foreman known for telling tall-tales?


I don't doubt that Ali did not want a rematch: as others have mentioned, the chance of the ropa-a-dope working a second time is highly questionable.

But on the other hand, George didn't earn the rematch. Even after working with the legendary Gil Clancy, George couldn't beat Jimmy Young. He had hit his ceiling.
- -You never earned yer lunch$$$, yer poor parents gave it to you hoping you'd amount to Sumpin'.

George remained the #1 contender, Ali vocally ducked him, Sadler conspired with Ali before the fight, hence the freakish cut in George's first African sparring session and so on and so forth.

All documented that leads me to believe you undocumented not to have known the obvious.

What backwater you hail from, Timbuktu?
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Old 08-18-2019, 12:24 PM #12
smeck smeck is offline
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Sadler conspired with Ali before the fight, hence the freakish cut in George's first African sparring session and so on and so forth.
Somebody said that Sadler ordered a sparring partner to cut George? Or did Sadler seize on the cut and widen it?

According to the New York Times the next day:

"Foreman received an inchlong gash between his right eye and eyebrow while sparring with Bill McMurray. The injury led his manager, Dick Sadler, to say that the champion needed a postponement.

There were few details on the exact nature of the cut, but it was regarded as too serious for Foreman to risk it being reopened in eight days. Foreman also would have lost several days in training."

The odd thing about the notion Ali was afraid to fight Foreman again, is that he wasn't afraid, aging and fading, to re-match himself against Frazier or Norton. With Ali's ego, he may have figured if he found a way to beat George once, he'd beat him again. Ali seemed pretty lively after the Foreman fight. After some fights, the fatigue and hurt was very evident.
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:11 PM #13
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
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Somebody said that Sadler ordered a sparring partner to cut George? Or did Sadler seize on the cut and widen it?

According to the New York Times the next day:

"Foreman received an inchlong gash between his right eye and eyebrow while sparring with Bill McMurray. The injury led his manager, Dick Sadler, to say that the champion needed a postponement.

There were few details on the exact nature of the cut, but it was regarded as too serious for Foreman to risk it being reopened in eight days. Foreman also would have lost several days in training."

The odd thing about the notion Ali was afraid to fight Foreman again, is that he wasn't afraid, aging and fading, to re-match himself against Frazier or Norton. With Ali's ego, he may have figured if he found a way to beat George once, he'd beat him again. Ali seemed pretty lively after the Foreman fight. After some fights, the fatigue and hurt was very evident.
- -The Foreman cut was severely deep, not an accident, and George held hostage by Mobuto afterwards until the fight could be consummated 2 months later.

Ali collapsed in the ring about 3-4x longer than George was down and guided to his corner. In the Ring post fight, he refused to entertain a rematch whereas as George ready to go.

In the only postfight vid, Ali reiterated the above and accused George of thumbing him, the sole thumbing accusation on georges record. Ali was in physical mourning, not jubilation.
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:33 PM #14
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- -The Foreman cut was severely deep, not an accident, and George held hostage by Mobuto afterwards until the fight could be consummated 2 months later.

Ali collapsed in the ring about 3-4x longer than George was down and guided to his corner. In the Ring post fight, he refused to entertain a rematch whereas as George ready to go.

In the only postfight vid, Ali reiterated the above and accused George of thumbing him, the sole thumbing accusation on georges record. Ali was in physical mourning, not jubilation.
Why did George walk away from boxing again for all those years?
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:06 AM #15
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Why did George walk away from boxing again for all those years?
The Jimmy Young fight in San Juan was exhausting. Young, an aggravating boxer with some of Ali's style, not only managed to dodge George's bombs, but tap him enough to get a points victory. George even went down in the 12th, more out of exhaustion. He was hospitalized with heat exhaustion and hallucinations, but George insisted it was something spiritual.

George explains it, talking to Max Williams, 2017:

“I went back to cool off in the dressing room and in a split second I was dead and alive again, I was in the room screaming ‘Jesus Christ has come alive in me!’ They rushed me to intensive care and I stayed in the hospital a couple of days, and I tried to rationalise what had happened to me. I saw blood on my hands and my forehead, I saw screaming…”
...For ten years I couldn’t make a fist. I couldn't box, I couldn't go back into the gym.”

He instead became Brother George: “I was ordained an evangelist and started working, preaching on the street corners, telling everybody about my experience."
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:33 AM #16
smeck smeck is offline
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Ali collapsed in the ring about 3-4x longer than George was down and guided to his corner. In the Ring post fight, he refused to entertain a rematch whereas as George ready to go.
Well, we see a lot of people collapse when they win. It's almost a cliche in tennis, but it happens all the time in boxing and MMA. The fighter's cornermen have to drag the guy back up because it looks so bad. In this case, he sat down with a throng of pushing and shoving idiots climbing into the ring. He got up easily before a count of ten. He was fine.

When George left the ring (walking out tired but not exhausted) Ali was waving his hands and playing to the crowd. When Ali left the ring maybe three to five minutes after George, he had his hand raised, encouraging applause and cheers. The cameras followed him to the dressing room, as Muhammad hugged Dr. Ferdie Pacheco and checked all the other well-wishers nearby. With the microphone on him, he sat and calmly said to David Frost, "I kept tellin' you he has no power, I kept tellin' you he has no power...I kept talkin' to him, too..."

And then: "I proved Allah is God, Elijah Muhammad is a messenger...I made it an easy night because Allah has power of ALL things...it wasn't a close fight was it?" And very sternly: "Attention...I told you all that I was the greatest of all time...I'm still the Greatest of All Time...I didn't dance for a reason. I wanted to make him lose all his power. I kept telling him he had no punch, he couldn't hit, he was swingin' like a sissy...you can't say I was tired...what happened, I didn't dance from the second round on...he was fallin' he was missin'...

"I don't know if I'm gonna fight again or not...thanks to all mighty God Allah...Read the Muhammad Speaks newspaper, go to your local Muslim temple and learn more about the life-giving power from Allah...you saw all the white people, the critics, the world, had me ranked to go down...Allah was with me and this man looked like nothing! Remember that..."

So, yes, Muhammad was quite lively after the fight.

How many remember that dressing room scene when they think about this fight? Almost nobody. It was one of Ali's most surprising bits of proselytizing for his religion. Whether he was up for a rematch or any fight...who knows what that was about. He could've been thinking of becoming a Muslim minister or something, having regained the championship and his credibility. He was a surprising guy and rarely predictable.

Last edited by smeck; 08-19-2019 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 06:18 AM #17
PRINCEKOOL PRINCEKOOL is offline
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The fight was not even close, Muhammad Ali was winning rounds and beating Foreman up off the ropes for the duration of the fight 'Even Ken Norton after afew rounds predicted that Ali was going to stop George Foreman'.

Of course yes Ali took some punishment on the ropes, but he was fighting a great defensive fight also 'Which does not really get commended at times'.

The strange about the fight was? It was clear after the first round that Ali had the speed, of foot and hand to out box George Foreman 'But even still he chose to go to the ropes'.

The reason why Foreman slipped into depression was because he was beaten up, and demoralized.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:18 AM #18
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by smeck View Post
Somebody said that Sadler ordered a sparring partner to cut George? Or did Sadler seize on the cut and widen it?

According to the New York Times the next day:

"Foreman received an inchlong gash between his right eye and eyebrow while sparring with Bill McMurray. The injury led his manager, Dick Sadler, to say that the champion needed a postponement.

There were few details on the exact nature of the cut, but it was regarded as too serious for Foreman to risk it being reopened in eight days. Foreman also would have lost several days in training."

The odd thing about the notion Ali was afraid to fight Foreman again, is that he wasn't afraid, aging and fading, to re-match himself against Frazier or Norton. With Ali's ego, he may have figured if he found a way to beat George once, he'd beat him again. Ali seemed pretty lively after the Foreman fight. After some fights, the fatigue and hurt was very evident.
Are you really trying to have a serious conversation with Queenie?

I applaud your ambition.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:21 AM #19
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -The Foreman cut was severely deep, not an accident, and George held hostage by Mobuto afterwards until the fight could be consummated 2 months later.

Ali collapsed in the ring about 3-4x longer than George was down and guided to his corner. In the Ring post fight, he refused to entertain a rematch whereas as George ready to go.

In the only postfight vid, Ali reiterated the above and accused George of thumbing him, the sole thumbing accusation on georges record. Ali was in physical mourning, not jubilation.
When do we get to the part where the aliens beam in from outer space and use their ray guns to sap George of his strength?

Do you order your tin hats, or do you make them yourself?

Foreman's trained, Gil Clancy, basically all but said Foreman was done after the loss to Ali. Or at least, never had it. He could destroy anyone standing in front of him. But the guy who chose to move would make George work harder than he wanted.

The Young fight is a solid indication of how a rematch with Ali would have went - at best.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:25 AM #20
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Why did George walk away from boxing again for all those years?
When he returned maturity and necessity had set in. He was ready to start fresh. He finally started applying the stuff Clancy had taught him.

While his better skills had left him, he managed to succeed.


It makes you wonder what might have happened if he had come up under Clancy from his youth. No lost teenage years. No wasted years w/ Saddler. Clancy could have made George the greatest.
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