How would Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano fare against modern Heavies?

[The Old LefHook]

No one else has picked up a 2,700 lbs. anchor and dragged it down the dock, by jingo. Angus Mackaskill did it 150 years ago.

[Dempsey19]

Not well. Fury is a way too big. It's like asking how would Whitaker or Pep fare against those guys.

Whitaker-sized Fitzsimmons beat Corbett who was their size and as an old man gave Prime Tunney hell in sparring.

[Warrior Scholar]

about the same as prehistoric mathmaticians would vs modern ones. with the advent of faster exchange of information, evolution is maximized. the size advantage of modern guys, you have everyone looking like primo these days.

they'd probably campaign at cw.

[Warrior Scholar]

No one else has picked up a 2,700 lbs. anchor and dragged it down the dock, by jingo. Angus Mackaskill did it 150 years ago.

2700 lbs , huh? damn, ill have to check that out. even with an oil slick or something down, thats still a hell of a pull

[billeau2]

I don’t necessarily think that this is the case. The no. of pro bouts in the 20s and 30s was higher than it is today. While fighters fought more frequently, there were also less weight classes.

I’d argue that the gene pool in a certain weight division in boxing may well be smaller than it was back in the day.

On a very basic level if there are more international fighters because sports have become more universal and it will contribute to a greater level of participation, so some extent. It does not mean that this level is not affected by other contributers, and it does not indicate to what degree this level is a factor...Hypothetically if world participation yielded one more fighter! It would still be a factor, just not a very important one lol.

As far as genetic arguments, they are very tricky to make. My approach would be to just stick with "nurture" and leave nature. We know that boxing nurtured through the environment the same kind of fighting man for most of its history...whether this man was genetically subject to tasacs, or a Puerto Rican from the mean streets of my old hood, is almost secondary.

We also know how important skills, and conditioning are. They are more important than simple size. More to the point, fighters for most of boxing history sought to enter the ring as light as possible. We can surely speculate that if Dempsey, or Marciano wanted to, they could have come in at much greater weights. Louis actually did, in his twilight when he was losing a step, fight at a greater weight.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Do you see any short heavyweight beating Fury ?

Frazier, Tyson (who Fury famously said would KO him in one round), Toney, Johnson, Mercer, Prime Evander ?

No. Fury is too big and slick.


I was actually surprised by both the Klitchko and Wilder performances. I expected him to lose both bouts. But I have come around to him. He really is something special. It's disappointing that he doesn't starch opponents - in fact, I feel embarrassed for him when he goes on the offensive. But how did being a big puncher work for Dempsey against Tunney, or Foreman against Ali, or Tyson against Holyfield?

Fury is a work in progress. Davison is adding depth to his game, making him more complete. He may lose a fight or two, but by the time he hangs up his gloves he'll likely be regarded as the best Heavyweight ever.

[Rusty Tromboni]

On a very basic level if there are more international fighters because sports have become more universal and it will contribute to a greater level of participation, so some extent. It does not mean that this level is not affected by other contributers, and it does not indicate to what degree this level is a factor...Hypothetically if world participation yielded one more fighter! It would still be a factor, just not a very important one lol.

As far as genetic arguments, they are very tricky to make. My approach would be to just stick with "nurture" and leave nature. We know that boxing nurtured through the environment the same kind of fighting man for most of its history...whether this man was genetically subject to tasacs, or a Puerto Rican from the mean streets of my old hood, is almost secondary.

We also know how important skills, and conditioning are. They are more important than simple size. More to the point, fighters for most of boxing history sought to enter the ring as light as possible. We can surely speculate that if Dempsey, or Marciano wanted to, they could have come in at much greater weights. Louis actually did, in his twilight when he was losing a step, fight at a greater weight.

I think this strikes a healthy balance. Too often the argument becomes black-and-white. Really, there's nuance. And no one can empirically say what conditions make for the best athlete, or even if one exists.


MMA strikers are the best we have ever seen. They will knock anyone the **** out. If you look, you'll see many come from Middle Class America, or something similar. Not that they grew up in Trump Towers, but no way those guys had an up-bringing as tough as Boxers who came of age 100 years ago. That's not to say they're not tough, or that they aren't natural killers. But they are clearly better fighters thanks to modern advancements. No one will dispute this.


With Professional Sports it can be argued that many sports have gotten better, but we can also see examples of decay or stagnation. They have also tried to make sports safer, which is conducive to better numbers and longer careers.

It's happened w/ Greyhound racing, too. They run on a speciliazed track the reduces impact. Generations of breeding have produced lighter-boned dogs that can run faster on that track, but whose bones splinter on more natural/commonly occuring surfaces. That says nothing about the dogs having the desire to hold their prey, if they were to catch it. So, yes, Greayhounds are meant to be the fastest sighthounds, best able to catch their prey. But now, Greyhounds that are faster than ever find it impossible to even reach their prey, forget overtaking it. If irony could kill, Greyhound tracks would be on the banks of the River Styx.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Whitaker-sized Fitzsimmons beat Corbett who was their size and as an old man gave Prime Tunney hell in sparring.

I doubt Fitz was the size of Whitaker. And I doubt Corbett was at his best.

In any event, people say things w/o worrying about substantiating them. N ooffense, but your comment doesn't carry much weight until it can be proven.

Duran beat Barkely, when Hearns couldn't. That can be witnessed. But what implications does it really have?

[Blond Beast]

Would Rocko have bulked to over 200lbs or cut to 175 or under if he fought today?

I’ve had a lot of recent debates over the old legends vs our modern heavies. Gene pool size etc. I mean the guys are all so much taller and heavier now “super heavies”. If it was all equal where were those tall guys back then? Carnera was a side show. I’m 5’10” 216 lean. I’ve done my share of bouncing etc. But I also know what it’s like to bare knuckle a guy who is 6’5” with an amateur career who can box backwards. I know I’d try for 175lbs and then cruiser, heavy for the money. I’m not slow or featherfisted but u have to be pretty slick when u can be hit before u can hit someone else. Speed and power is a lot more natural than head movement. Even Mikes head movement is more mythical than real. Rocky would cut weight to answer ur question.

[Rusty Tromboni]

No hes not. You think he is
Let me explain it..
No fighter today is as well conditioned as Marciano. He would be 8 months in the training camp.
You probably think theres a lot of guys as well conditioned as him.
But no there not
If they were as well conditioned as him they wouldn't.
need to dehydrate to make weight. They would already be at that weight.
Marciano could have trained like them. Then hydrated to make 185. Instead he spend 8 months in training camp to be 185

Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore they weighed more then Marciano when they fought him.
Even though they weighed more. They could have made 175
Marciano could not. Unless he loses muscle mass.
Hes to well conditioned

I think Marciano would bulk up, and then cut down. I don't doubt that he could have made 175 in his era, but why? Light Heavyweight is a consulation prize for guys who can't compete at Hw.

It's like why would someone run all the way upstairs to his hotel room's wetbar, when the lounge is serving happy hour? Is it worth the effort and insane cost, when at most he might have to wait a little longer for a cheaper drink?
Look at what happened to Dillashaw when he cut to Flyweight to become a two-weight campion. Even Conor almost killed himself making 145, and probably did more to hurt his career long-term.

marciano and goldman clearly knew what they were doing. Just like Louis and Chapie before them.

Today Marciano would easily pack on 20 pounds, and shed a few to make 200. Losing the last three rounds and having to put on bigger gloves would definitely present an obstacle. But he could fight a much more explosive fight. I think he'd actually be more dangerous.