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Old 09-19-2017, 11:53 AM #41
LomaLovkin LomaLovkin is offline
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Originally Posted by Sugar Adam Ali View Post
You can take money out of Roth IRA anytime, but you pay huge penalties, like 50% of something crazy like that, unless you are at retirement age.

A normal brokerage account, you can pull money in and out.

ROTH IRA- strictly retirement

Brokerage account- everything else
By
Carrie Schwab-Pomerantz
CFP®, President,

While IRA withdrawals before age 59½ usually trigger a percent penalty, there are exceptions—including the first-time homebuyer exemption. Making it even more tempting, the definition of first-time homebuyer is broader than it sounds.
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Old 09-19-2017, 12:24 PM #42
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Originally Posted by LomaLovkin View Post
By
Carrie Schwab-Pomerantz
CFP®, President,

While IRA withdrawals before age 59½ usually trigger a percent penalty, there are exceptions—including the first-time homebuyer exemption. Making it even more tempting, the definition of first-time homebuyer is broader than it sounds.

Ah,,, nice.. didn't know that
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Old 09-19-2017, 01:20 PM #43
Scipio2009 Scipio2009 is online now
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If you read between the lines Tesla isn't even a car company anymore. It is a solar technology company and...it just so happens that the connondrum with solar comes down to the battery issue. Solar is a viable technology now which is why Musk, under the radar, made the transition to becoming a solar company. If you don't believe it look at their state of the art facility in Reno. And think... If y0u were making spinners toys and one day came closer to making a perpetual energy machine, what would you do?

If you were smart like musk you would not announce this discovery, you would just sort of lean over to the technology, and still let every one see the spinners being made, if you catch my drift. Musk is at the head of the pack for what will be one of the chief sources of energy in times to come. If he perfects solar battery life he can sell fridges to Eskimos and still write a ticket for anything he wants!

If you look at places like the West in the United States, there is land that cannot be made whole and livable because of three factors: Most important, water and water rights, and then roads and power. Roads can be created with Easements, water can be drilled...though water is a big problem and not to be minimized, and solar used to be useful but not really viable as a system in itself. now solar can be used off the grid. Compost toilets actually work better than most liquid septic systems. This is why solar is so important.
I get that, but still.

If the underlying focus really is on working on battery technology that could one day efficiently max out the storage of solar energy in people's homes and work facilities, continue the effort to continue to try and build a consumer car business for the broad market is a heck of an expensive ruse, imo (Largely due to the drag on this great future solar battery business that would come from all of the legacy costs of trying to be a car company).

Musk could still build his $100k+ battery cars, work on building out SUVs and trucks at whatever their price point would be, continue to develop his battery technology for converting solar power, and still deliver on the seeming vision of what he's working on.

As a person looking for places to invest my money, I'd be far more comfortable with putting my money with Elon Musk if Tesla was being positioned like Ferrari (with this really compelling solar/battery play working itself out behind that).

The fact that Tesla basically wants to be Ford Motor Company gives me pause (especially in a place where you can leave the other companies with figuring out how to make the consumer numbers work, supply the industry standard car battery to the entire market, and make an easier killing that way).
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Old 09-19-2017, 01:58 PM #44
LomaLovkin LomaLovkin is offline
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Ah,,, nice.. didn't know that
Thought I had read it before somewhere, nice little perk. Up to 10,000 per working spouse tho.
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:44 PM #45
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I get that, but still.

If the underlying focus really is on working on battery technology that could one day efficiently max out the storage of solar energy in people's homes and work facilities, continue the effort to continue to try and build a consumer car business for the broad market is a heck of an expensive ruse, imo (Largely due to the drag on this great future solar battery business that would come from all of the legacy costs of trying to be a car company).

Musk could still build his $100k+ battery cars, work on building out SUVs and trucks at whatever their price point would be, continue to develop his battery technology for converting solar power, and still deliver on the seeming vision of what he's working on.

As a person looking for places to invest my money, I'd be far more comfortable with putting my money with Elon Musk if Tesla was being positioned like Ferrari (with this really compelling solar/battery play working itself out behind that).

The fact that Tesla basically wants to be Ford Motor Company gives me pause (especially in a place where you can leave the other companies with figuring out how to make the consumer numbers work, supply the industry standard car battery to the entire market, and make an easier killing that way).
Theres a lot to unpack in your post, as you raise some great issues to consider. So, for example... lets take it one step further and say "BIlleau, come on! Look at Hewlett Packard. It had the market on printers and when Carly decided to jump into computers, a bigger fish to fry it destroyed them". BTW Carly really did destroy Packard, its not an exxageration.

The smart people can tell where an industry is headed, but it takes a lot of creativity to consider. Most smart industry people knew that personal computers were being eclipsed. At that time it wasn't even the phones so much as the money being in the software and peripherals, bundle of services... like storage, etc. meanwhile Packard could have been the first to make a decent three dimensional printer, etc. Sometimes being an industry leader means staying in your lane and Fionna was sent to HP to basically destroy the company because it was maintained by two guys Hewlett and Packard. Thats why that went down. the vultures wanted in on printing where most people with any sense in Silicon Valley knew where the money was.

Now, what makes Tessla different? Cars as an industry is forecast at $1,653.7 billion, an increase of 39.6% since 2010. Being a player in that industry, if you are Tessla means: maintaining the lead as the best producer of electric cars. Assuming electric will be the way the industry goes. Making that profitable.

Compare that to the potential income when you give people off the grid power that is reliable, and relatively cheap. The amount of market share (most solar companies are relatively small, and underfunded) is staggering. So what does Musk do? well he will continue to build cars, and its not totally a ruse, but, he knows that even as the top player the growth potential is not there IF we even go electric.

In the final analysis ALL companies when they reach a certain level of capitalization become money companies. General Eletric is the best example of that. What does GE sell? Answer: Anything it wants to, it was into loans for a while, energy, medical equipment. Once Tessla reaches a certain level it will also become a money company and that is really where your stability is, not in any industry per se.

But Solar energy is a clean market ready to be plundered. the technology is conjunctive, it can function along other energy efficient means, it has limitless growth... Why do you think Musk is into space travel so much? We could colonize mars and if we did guess what would power things? not Pacific Energy grids! Limitless, kind of like the market for 3 dimensional printers, which can make organs, houses, piece by piece, weapons, and probably a nice sex doll!

But that is why the auto business is more or less a red herring to throw people off the trial. Proof being look at his facility in Reno Nevada.
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:53 PM #46
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Originally Posted by LomaLovkin View Post
Thought I had read it before somewhere, nice little perk. Up to 10,000 per working spouse tho.
But I would advise not taking it out, if possible. Just because it's capped every year so it's not like you can replenish it right away.

But still a nice bit of info to know
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:33 PM #47
Scipio2009 Scipio2009 is online now
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Theres a lot to unpack in your post, as you raise some great issues to consider. So, for example... lets take it one step further and say "BIlleau, come on! Look at Hewlett Packard. It had the market on printers and when Carly decided to jump into computers, a bigger fish to fry it destroyed them". BTW Carly really did destroy Packard, its not an exxageration.

The smart people can tell where an industry is headed, but it takes a lot of creativity to consider. Most smart industry people knew that personal computers were being eclipsed. At that time it wasn't even the phones so much as the money being in the software and peripherals, bundle of services... like storage, etc. meanwhile Packard could have been the first to make a decent three dimensional printer, etc. Sometimes being an industry leader means staying in your lane and Fionna was sent to HP to basically destroy the company because it was maintained by two guys Hewlett and Packard. Thats why that went down. the vultures wanted in on printing where most people with any sense in Silicon Valley knew where the money was.

Now, what makes Tessla different? Cars as an industry is forecast at $1,653.7 billion, an increase of 39.6% since 2010. Being a player in that industry, if you are Tessla means: maintaining the lead as the best producer of electric cars. Assuming electric will be the way the industry goes. Making that profitable.

Compare that to the potential income when you give people off the grid power that is reliable, and relatively cheap. The amount of market share (most solar companies are relatively small, and underfunded) is staggering. So what does Musk do? well he will continue to build cars, and its not totally a ruse, but, he knows that even as the top player the growth potential is not there IF we even go electric.

In the final analysis ALL companies when they reach a certain level of capitalization become money companies. General Eletric is the best example of that. What does GE sell? Answer: Anything it wants to, it was into loans for a while, energy, medical equipment. Once Tessla reaches a certain level it will also become a money company and that is really where your stability is, not in any industry per se.

But Solar energy is a clean market ready to be plundered. the technology is conjunctive, it can function along other energy efficient means, it has limitless growth... Why do you think Musk is into space travel so much? We could colonize mars and if we did guess what would power things? not Pacific Energy grids! Limitless, kind of like the market for 3 dimensional printers, which can make organs, houses, piece by piece, weapons, and probably a nice sex doll!

But that is why the auto business is more or less a red herring to throw people off the trial. Proof being look at his facility in Reno Nevada.
Hewlett Packard is an entirely different conversation.

Even if the future of the car business is electric cars, Toyota/GM/Ford/FCA/Volkswagen/Mercedes/BMW/the various other Asian car companies have already figured out how to produce and deliver consumer vehicles to the public at a price that makes sense. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see the sense in Tesla trying to compete over the $20k car, when they can simply deliver their luxury electric car product, continue to refine and improve their battery technology, and build their business that way.

GE is different, in the sense that they are an industrial conglomerate, focused solely on delivering products and services that are simply too expensive for any other upstart to come in and compete with them; jet engines, MRI machines, water treatment plant, deepwater drill technologies, trains, etc (with the current big push towards developing proprietary maintenance software to help their customers better time the repair/replacement of the machines).

Elon's ideas may end up working out; I'd just rather not put my money with his company while he's still trying to make consumer vehicles is all.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:17 PM #48
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Hewlett Packard is an entirely different conversation.

Even if the future of the car business is electric cars, Toyota/GM/Ford/FCA/Volkswagen/Mercedes/BMW/the various other Asian car companies have already figured out how to produce and deliver consumer vehicles to the public at a price that makes sense. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see the sense in Tesla trying to compete over the $20k car, when they can simply deliver their luxury electric car product, continue to refine and improve their battery technology, and build their business that way.

GE is different, in the sense that they are an industrial conglomerate, focused solely on delivering products and services that are simply too expensive for any other upstart to come in and compete with them; jet engines, MRI machines, water treatment plant, deepwater drill technologies, trains, etc (with the current big push towards developing proprietary maintenance software to help their customers better time the repair/replacement of the machines).

Elon's ideas may end up working out; I'd just rather not put my money with his company while he's still trying to make consumer vehicles is all.
I am not selling Elon's idea just describing it. When there is a new technology one never knows for sure what could happen. This is why there has to be strategy. Its to Musk's advantage to perfect the batteries but carefully enough so the technology cannot be pirated, or perfected thereafter easily. There are other people working on the problem as well...it is the obvious problem with solar.

There are differences but companies are remarkably similar in certain respects. GE is a money company, the problems it had had to do with lots of capital and what to do with it. Do you become a bank for your investors? a lot of mining companies do this, yielding absurd dividends when they manage to beat the averages. All companies hope to capitalize on market share in their sectors and industry and the best way to do this is to get their first on the new, not hold on to the old. Do you know who is the leader in Bottled water sales? or at least has been traditionally? Coke.
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:46 AM #49
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Originally Posted by Sugar Adam Ali View Post
Being under 30 is a great time to start investing.

There is a difference between investing and trading.

Trading is actually earning a living, short term profit, constant trades, and is very hard and need a fairly decent bankroll to get started, plus a working knowledge of how the market works. This isn't for the average guy

Investing is what normal people do, stick money away and let it grow long term, constantly reinvesting dividends and gains, to hopefully build a nice nest egg for retirement. It's very possible for an average person or couple to be able to build a 500k+ nest egg over a 30+ year period.

Investing is very simple for long term gains.

Here is my advice:

1. I can suggest starting an online account with Charles schwab, it costs nothing but you have to deposit $500 into you account initially. I use them myself, had them for years and can't complain, very simple, good customer service, extremely cheap on fees

2. Setup a Roth IRA. This is a retirement account that you can't touch until your 65 but it's all taxfree when it comes out in retirement. If you take it out sooner, you face you penalties, fees and taxes, so DONT touch it.. it is capped at only 5,500 annually when your young and then rises to 6,500 when you hit 55 years old. Your first goal will be to fully fund the 5,500 every year and "max out"

3. With money in your ROTH IRA, simply invest in index funds using dollar cost averaging which means instead of investing a large sum at once you break it up over smaller payments over time to catch a nice average price point for the year. I suggest investing only in schwab funds because their is no commission/fees, and their index funds are the cheapest fees in the industry. %0.03 for a fee which most are %.0.50 if not a full 1%. I suggest investing in the s&p index swppx and schx which is their large cap index ETF, which is basically the same thing except ETFs are trading like stock, unlike mutual funds which generally are bought in quantities of money amounts and not number of share. PUT ALL YOUR MONEY INTO THESE FIRST UNTIL YOU MAX OUT YOUR ANNUAL LIMIT OF 5,500.

4. REINVEST ALL DIVIDENDS AND GAINS. You can set this to do it automatically so you never have to worry about doing it yourself. This will have a huge snowball effect on your investment.

5. If you find yourself with more money to invest and have already fully funded IRA then open a normal brokerage account with schwab, this has no limits but different tax ramifications depending on how quickly you buy/sell a stock. 30 days, 12 months, 24 months, usually anything after 5 years of holding will have the lowest tax ramifications.

6. In the brokerage account, do the exact same thing and continue to invest commission free into swppx fund and schx eft.

7. Once you have hit 10k in a year investing into swppx and schx, then you can target individual stocks like Apple, Amazon, etc or just continue to plug money into the index fund and index etf.

8. JUST BE SURE THE FIRST 5,500 GOES TO ROTH IRA, NEXT 4,500 GOES TO BROKERAGE, ALL OF IT INVESTED IN SCHWAB INDEX FUNDS AND ETFS. REINVEST ALL DIVIDENDS AND GAINS

9. Be sure to do dollar cost averaging, which means invest a few times a month rather than once a month. Instead of 1,000 at the 1st of each month, do $250 a week, that way you can catch all the dips and get some bargains and lower your overall price point, which will increase returns. I personally have mine setup to auto invest on the 5th and 20th of each month

10. Follow these steps, and in 30 years, when you are 58, you will have a huge nest egg, and at 65 it will be even bigger. Easily over 500k and close to a million if not more.
Thank you very much, read this post 5 times already. Only question right now is why schwab and why not vangaurd?
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:03 AM #50
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Originally Posted by _original_ View Post
Thank you very much, read this post 5 times already. Only question right now is why schwab and why not vangaurd?
No reason.... I just personally use schwab, for many years. I'm not familiar enough with vanguard website and online tools to have an opinion.

I do know that vanguard is well known for their funds.. but that's the extent of my knowledge on them.

Key things to look for in funds is expense fee and commission fees. Schwab has the lowest at 0.03% and no commission when buying their funds.. Vanguard may or may not have these perks, I'm really not sure..

Either way, my advice still the same, ROTH IRA, then brokerage, first 10k every year towards index funds and etf.
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