You have to bet your life on one fighter to beat Floyd Mayweather

[IronDanHamza]

So is the consensus that Floyd moved up in weight when there were tougher challenges to be had at the weight classes he was already at during those times or did he move up and face the better challenges at the time?

I know you were saying Mosley and Pacquiao were their faults as well, in terms of one pricing himself out and the other not agreeing to drug testing conditions, so what's the story on the rest of Floyd's career here?

Certainly at 130 and 135. He without doubt fought the best. Only fight that should have happened that didn't was Stevie Johnston.

At 140, he wanted Kosta Tszyu, but politics got in the way mostly. Tszyu was past his best and riddled with injuries despite being the man at 140 so realistically I'm not suprised Kosta wasn't overly interested.

147-154 he fought a lot of good guys. The big fight planned at the time in 2006 was Floyd vs Zab Judah. Both P4P fighters at the time. Obviously Judah lost to Baldomir which put a massive spanner in the works.

Only fight Floyd missed at 147 IMO was Margarito. Floyd was reluctant to take that fight for whatever reason.

Realistically this notion of he picked easy fights to stay unfefeated is massively overstated.

Like I mentioned previously, there are pretty much no fighters in history who beat more guys ranked #1 at the weight class than Floyd. Of course that's all relative and doesn't make him the greatest or even close to it by anu stretch but it is still damn impressive to do that across 5 weight classes no less. Floyd was Champion at 5 weights, 130, 135, 147 and 154 he was Lineal Champion. So, what is Floyd just the luckiest cherrypicker ever?

How do you become champion in 5 weights, 4 of which Lineal, beat 10 guys ranked #1 and 7 guys ranked in the Top 10 P4P by cherrypicking all easy fights? Makes no sense.

[IronDanHamza]

He didn't fight Freitas nor Casamayor.
Easy to dismiss those fights now - as Floyd had better carerr - but there's a reason You fight a fight.
Casamayor was't easy for anyone - and there was talk that at a time Floyd's team(family) didn't want him to fight southpaw.
Freitas was very tricky fight for all pure boxers - with his long arms, athlethicism and deceptive ring-smarts.

At 140, He missed up on Tszyu. Didn't fight Hatton - but I saw interview with Floyd when He said that Ricky's team didn't want it - I believe that, knowing what We know about Frank Warren and the way He manages his fighters.
Didn't fight Cotto, but I'm almost 100% certain it was down to Top Rank, don't think They would've wanted to put Cotto in with Floyd at a time.


Oh, I disagree here. He hardly fought anyone at that weight!
Margarito, Paul Williams, Clottey, Younger Mosley, Prime Pacquiao, Peak Cotto...
Then, after his come back - He didn't fight anyone who was considered truly elite.
He picked guys like Ortiz, Guerrero, Maidana, Berto... All that while guys like Danny Garcia, Shawn Porter, Keith Thurman, Kell Brook were all around.

So yeah, I honestly think He was very carefully managed for big portion of his career.
There're always explanations. Business explanations in particular - but reality is, He avoided all of the most talented fighters at Welterweight, or caught them way past their prime.


Did He really beat 10 guys ranked #1?
You wrote it couple times. I might be wrong, but it seems a bit off to me.
Unless You mean They were #1 in some time in their career, not necessary when Floyd fought them?

Floyd wanted Frietas. HBO wanted Floyd vs Casamayor but both parties claimed the other wouldn't agree terms.

Of course fights didn't happen at 147. But what I mean is the only one Floyd was at fault for was Margarito. Margarito was on the table in 2006 and Floyd turned it down.

Unlike Williams and Clottey who were never realistic options.

Mosley had a chance to fight Floyd in 2006 but turned it down and Pacquaio that's one not worth opening.

Pretty easy to say Porter, Kell Brook, Thurman etc were options but they never were ever options. That's just hindsight being 20-20. At the time of all those fights except Andre Berto, the guys Floyd fought were higher ranked than those guys you listed.

He didn't avoid the fighters you listed that's the thing. He avoided Margarito I will agree with that. Not the others.

As for Floyd beating 10 #1 ranked guys. No I mean at the time and at the weight being fought at.

130;

Hernandez
Corrales

135;

Castillo
Castillo

140;

Gatti (Tszyu Ring Champion so could argue Gatti was actually #2 but how Ring rankings are structured it goes Ring Champ then #1, #2 etc so fair if you decide to not include Gatti

147;

Baldomir
Mosley
Pacquaio

154;

Cotto
Canelo

That's 10. All ranked #1 at the weight class being fought in at the time.

If we count the number of Top 5 guys he beat at the time he fought them then it increases by a lot.

[_Rexy_]

My life is on the line, like someone has a gun to my head?

Okay, guy with gun, go fight Floyd.

[IronDanHamza]

I don't undertand the "were never options" idea.
I can believe that it wasn't Floyd's fault many of fights in his early career didn't happen - but later on, anything He wanted was an option and would get done. Everyone wanted to fight him.
You think Paul Williams would turn down Floyd fight? After He beat Margarito? Floyd fought Hatton, 140 pounder coming up - instead. Clottey was around at the time also.
Thurman, Brook, Porter, Danny Garcia would all be at least as big as Maidana rematch.
Tim Bradley was around at all this time... It's not like people were calling for fights like Victor Ortiz or Guerrero, just because They beat Berto. People were makin a joke of Andre being Floyd Mayweather Jr. gatekeeper.
If He wanted to fight Canelo, He should've fought him at 154. I don't believe people were all that excited for Cotto fight either. Miguel was considered past his prime - and people knew that his opponents at 154 were very carefully picked. Paper belt-holder Foreman and two shot guys.

If The argument is that Floyd took easier fight for more money... sure. That's the point though, He avoided plenty of risky fights. Particulary at 147.


As for the list - I appriciate it. So it's Number #1 behind Floyd, right... I overlooked that.
Gatti was number #1 rank? Jesus. I don't think He evern beat Branco before that.
Guys like Baldomir, Cotto weren't considerd the best at their weight when Floyd fought them...
Nice stat - and apparently true - but to me it only proves how overrated those kind of statistics can be. Just right guys at right time.

I really don't rate Floyd's career past 135. Those late years, holding on to that "0". Meh, hardly meaningful if You try to push for greatness.

The only time Williams was ever remotely in line for Floyd he lost to Quintana. Williams says himself that Floyd never avoided him for those reasons. The timing was never there.

Clottey wasn't an option because Clottey not only was with Bob Arum but even still he was never a top contender at 147. No one was clamouring for that.

Obviously Floyd would rematch Maidana in that scenario because he arguably lost to him. He would have been slated for not taking it.

Yes but again, he didn't avoid these fights you speak of. Margarito was in line for Floyd, and made sense and he turned it down. You can't say that for any other guys you listed.

Well Berto was one of the top guys at 147 then. Another use of hindsight. Especially when Ortiz beat him in 2011, Berto was #3. Which made Ortiz #2 behind Pacquaio (Floyd removed due to inactivity) so that was a fight to make at the time. Again, at the time. Looking back it's easy to say oh well he should have fought Thurma or Porter. No because those guys werent even in the Top 10 then so why would he do that? Ortiz was ranked #2 and WBC Champion that was the logical fight to make AT THE TIME.

And the vast majority weren't #1 behind Floyd but #1 in general including Floyd.

Genaro
Corrales
Castillo (1)
Gatti
Baldomir
Mosley
Cotto
Canelo

Were all ranked #1 and that isn't behind Floyd.

Pacquaio was #1 with Floyd as Champion and Castillo rematch Castillo was #1 with Floyd as Champion. All the others were #1 in general (Gatti*)

[IronDanHamza]

Nah, Dan. It's not hindsight.
I remember when Floyd picked to fight Ortiz and consensus among boxing fans was He picked a guy He can easily beat. Everyone wanted to see Pacquiao fight really(Talking about logical fight...), but I don't remember any serious fans taking that as some great fights because Ortiz beat Berto... Berto wasn't highly regarded, most thought He lost to Collazo - and He was criticised for his opponent selection.. First He fought Freddy, then picked on 140 pounder in Ortiz.

Same with Guerrero. Who wanted to see that?

Maidana? He exposed Broner, but people still remembered How Alexander completely shut him down. It wasn't some big fight or anything.
Even Cotto was considered past his prime. People were surprised how competitive it was...

He picked those guys - just like He could've picked someone else. Those fights were not any more logical than - at different times - Williams, Clottey, Bradley, Porter, Thurman(He was mandatory to Floyd, technically...), Brook...
You're just giving Floyd a pass for not challanging himself. Business wise, I understand - great move. In terms of legacy? Obviously He could've challanged himself more and give shot to better fighters. I don't know how anyone can argue that?

I guess it depends what do You clasify as duck... Is duck only when You're cornered by one guy and have nowhere else to go?
Or is it a duck when You have bunch of fighters to chose from... and You chose the easier fight?

To pick 1 fight to not make this post too long:
When He fought Hatton, it wasn't considered challange. In the meantime - Williams just beat Margarito in a fight that was considered battle of division's boogiemen. Williams held a title, was undefeated, physical freak...
If Ortiz fight made sense some years later because Ortiz held WBC Title, how come that fight didn't make sense? Instead You fight Hatton, 140 pounder who looked really bad in his only fight at 147 with Collazo(Lost it).
Again - how You decide to look at it? Was Hatton logical because it was easier fight?
Or was Williams logical because people who knew boxing knew it was more difficult challange?
Hatton brought U.K money, but They could promoter Williams vs Floyd to something big if They wanted to.

It's not like Ray Leonard HAD TO fight Tommy Hearns. I don't think people realise that Tommy wasn't some crazy attraction before He fought Ray for the first time. He didn't have many big, headline shows, didn't have that much of a push on the way up - Bob put him on Ray undercard to build that fight up.

So it all depends on how You look at it. There's always explanations and if You chose to give someone a pass, You can.
If You think it's ok for Floyd to not fight all those guys, then You can probably say it would've been fine if noone of the "Fabulous Four" fought each other...
... I'm honestly disappointed that real boxing fans will accept those kind of excuses, Risk/Reward etc... That's why We don't get majority of best fights.
Far more is accepted - with fighters also having much more control over who They fight, which is not good - than it used to be.

So... with the question You posed early - If what Floyd done, with those nice statistics You bring - was so easily, how come no one else done it?
Well, Reality was very different in the past. Fighters didn't have the same control - and unfortunetely - right now many fighters want to copy what Floyd was doing over late part of his career in particular.
Even worse.. right now those guys want to do it pretty much right after winning a belt.
Floyd at least was really competing in his younger days.

X
By the way, I checked - and Gatti wasn't #1. He was #1 behind champion (Tszyu/Hatton). Don't count!

A lot of text so I'll just reply to pieces.

Berto was regarded as one of the Top WW's in 2011. He simply was, that's just a fact. And when Ortiz beat him that was an obvious fight to make. And the box office numbers showed that.

Guererro abit different. That was met with some backlash though Guererro was ranked #3 at WW. But yes I'll agree on that one. Still a decent fight though at the time.

It is literally hindsight. Literally that's what it is.

Absolutely no one was asking for Floyd to fight Clottey for example at any point in time, he was never even an option for Floyd at any point yet you are implying he avoided him. It's silly. Same goes for Porter, Thurman and a list of other examples you've used.

And the guys that were feasible options such as Mosley (turned it down), Pacquaio (Drug testing debacle), were no fault of Floyds.

Also if you look at my post when listing the guys I clearly stated that Gatti was #1 BEHIND Tszyu who was Ring Champion so can understand why one may not include that one. You must have missed it.

[IronDanHamza]

Right, I apologise - missed it indeed.
I'll still argue that it's not "one may not include", it just shouldn't be included if Your stat is suppose to be precise. You're number 1 or not number 1. Number #1 behind number #1 is number 2, You know? (Joking here, not trying to be a d*ck).

Ok - It was a lot of text indeed so I take blam for that, but You didn't respond to what I see as more important point:
- If Ortiz made sense in 2011 because He beat Berto, who was world class - and held title at the time...
..then why didn't Paul Williams make sense in 2007, when He just beat #1 guy(Behind Floyd ) in Margarito - and also held a title WBO?
Talking of hindsight - Mentioning loss to Quintana - which happend after Floyd took Hatton fight and retired is that.
Seems like double standards to me and flawed logic.

Why not fight Bradley instead of Guerrero? Obviously a better fight, right? I know I wanted to see it at the time, (so no hindsight there). People just seem to accept the excuse of "different promoter", but would Top Rank really stop Bradley from fighting Mayweather? I don't believe so. Tim wanted the fight too.

Why should We exclude Berto fight for Floyd by the way? Is getting older excuse for not fighting the best - if You're still champion?
That's convenient. Much easier to stay undefeated if that's acceptable, right? After all, a lot of great champions lost because They took tough fights after They got older..
Sweet Pea didn't have to fight De la Hoya, right? Roy didn't have to fight Tarver, Duran didn't have to rematch Leonard etc. etc.


I know what You're saying, Iron.. but I think You learned to accept too much, looking at it like a business and not competition.
It's just disappointing that it came to the point where BOXING FANS will argue that it's ok to take easier fights.
Again, all about what constitues duck. What's the standard here... Ray didn't have to fight Duran or Hearns, really.

So duck or not, Floyd chosed easier options multiple times in his career. Did He take some good fights as well, yes. Other fighters took tougher fights and more consistantly though - and because of that, have greater career.

Well I just included Gatti due to Ring's ranking system but I agree with you. That's why I made sure that was clear on inclusion.

Mayweather Hatton was signed by July of 2007. The same month Williams beat Margarito. Ideally I'd have liked to have seen Mayweather fight Cotto and/or Williams in 2008 or 2009 but of course both lost when Floyd came back. Again Williams was just never an option, by the time he was the timings never lined up. He never avoided Williams and Williams attests to that himself on record.

There is no way in hell Bob Arum would have Bradley fight Floyd. Never, in a million years. The only fight that could ever be made was Pacquaio and that was because of the magnitude of the fight and after years of bitter back and forth. You can X off any Top Rank fighter post 2007 for Floyd to be honest. The cold war was very real as I'm sure you'd remember.

Berto was a poor fight (unranked) and yeah certainly there was better options then but he was 38 and finished and was just finishing out his contract. More of a farewell fight (from actual Boxing) in my eyes.

[IronDanHamza]

Edit*

Accidental double post.

[IronDanHamza]

I'll just say this - regarding Williams, because I think other might want to read it. Here's article I found, from August 1-st announcing that fight was official: (Hatton fight)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ht-agreed.html

That's 2 weeks after Williams beat Margarito... So even if Floyd was negotiating with Hatton ever since Ricky called him out after knocking out Castillo, contracts were not yet signed...
Even if we assumed for a second that it was announced in July like You said - it's convenient to not wait for Margarito vs Williams. It was big fight in boxing circles, battle of two boogiemen... and You don't wait week or two for that? Williams wasn't big name yet, but He fought on HBO couple times and was highly regarded contender. It's not like He came out of nowhere.

Everyone can make up their mind, but I think it's pretty poor excuse for avoiding better, tougher fight - to say that I already negotiated with a guy who was smaller, not regarded as the same threat, from division below... so I didn't really avoid the fight that was tougher. I don't know, depends on what You want to give pass on.

If that's acceptable, then it's very easy to avoid any fight. Joshua could've signed someone to fight in April before Wilder vs Fury - and then if He was questioned about fighting one of them.
"Ups... I'd love to fight them, but IT SO HAPPEND that I have other opponent signed... Eh, what can You do? SUCH A BAD COINCIDENCE! JUST WASN'T MEANT TO BE!".

Very nice of Williams to say Floyd didn't duck him. You can call it as You wish, point is Floyd could've fought him and chosed option that was clearly easier.

It's fine to accept Floyd's excuses, but if We talk about standards of Greatness, We have to compare Floyd to other great fighters.
Point is that others took tougher fights, more consistantly - so even if We excuse Floyd for his career path, We have to give more credit to those who took tougher path, right? That's what greatness is about. Challanging yourself.

Saying that You don't have to try to make fights with any Bob's fighters because "Wouldn't happen anyway" is also convenient.
Should We give Joshua a pass for not fighting Wilder and Fury also? Shouldn't You make an attempt? Offer?

I don't believe Bob would stop Bradley from fighting Mayweather if the deal was fair. Too much money on the line.

It was without question signed in July.

Well I thought Hatton was a good opponent anyway. P4P ranked guy, a big name. Made sense. I don't think that's a bad opponent.

It's not convenient it's a fact. No TR fighters were fighting Floyd during that period. Nor were they even fighting GBP fighters. Just wasn't happening.

To act like Bradley was ever an option is silly. He never was.

Totally different to AJ/Wilder, that fight could be made in a heart beat.

AJ/Fury, that will be hard to make for similar reasons but the Hearn/Warren feud is no where close to the Arum/Haymon one especially around 2009-2013 when they literally refused to work together.

[QueensburyRules]

--- As to Castillo, his record was of no consequence until bumrushed up the Ring charts.

Turned out to be a good fighter for a few years, but it was like arum paid to bumrush to hide he was nobody anyone in the states ever heard of.

[QueensburyRules]

Castillo had excellent resume! One of the most underated fighter of his generation imo.

--- Had 4 knockout losses going into floyd I, 3 against the best he ever faced, the last being for the Mexican title.

Yet he BTFO of Arums propped darling.

And Castillo was #1 lightweight with such a stained record?

Without HUGE graft?

http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/8837