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Old 04-30-2019, 06:41 AM #51
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is online now
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
Ali and Charles were not overated. Now Ali literally gets called the greatest of all time bar non by everyone so you may have a point there, but Charles is actually underrated. He is by far the best lhw to do it, incredibly high ring iq, this guy would lull his oponents to sleep for 5 rounds and patiently wait to unload that one lazer focused combination and put you to sleep. His resume is second to non at lhw. One of the best resumes in boxing.
Can you please share w/ me what you consider his greatest wins... and please provide the weights they occurred at?

Can you provide any footage that proves he's Tunney's superior? Or forget that, how about just better than Conn or Spinks?
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:08 AM #52
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Tyson and de la hoya.
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:08 PM #53
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Originally Posted by kushking View Post
I don't remember the last time I watched an Ali fight because it was long before my time & have only watched a few.


lol "Long before my time" Are you saying if a fighter is before you're time you are not interested? lmao. How can any fight fan only have watched a few Ali fight's? Unless you are under 15 I am very confused.. Do you do the same thing with music? Only listen to present day artists? **** that.


Ali fought in the best era of HW boxing and proved he was the best.
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:59 PM #54
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Originally Posted by Mexican_Puppet View Post
Mexicans does not have media or press, and historically always took more risks than fighters from other countries, thats the reason why you see Chávez with 37 years fighting with a young killer like Tzyu in prime, Morales 37 years old and fat fighting with bigger guys like Maidana and Danny García.

And for example, old Monzón could fight with Hagler but he did want that smoke.

But is Canelo, he is a very good fighter but he is overrated or he was.

Munguia is getting a lot of hype, Ryan García too.
Hagler was never on Monzon’s radar. Monzón was already 35, getting into movies (didn’t need to keep fighting or be a steppingstone) whereas Hagler had just been soundly defeated by Willie Monroe and had a close loss just prior to that had lost to Boogaloo Watts. It’s crazy to suggest Monzón ducked him. Corro and Valdéz were the top contenders and he’d just beaten Valdéz twice. Hagler started hitting his stride about a year after Monzons retirement.

I’d be interested to see when specifically you felt Monzón avoided that fight or it was clamoured for.
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:10 PM #55
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Originally Posted by Mexican_Puppet View Post
Griffith and Briscoe were too small to the 160 pounds and their prime was in 147 pounds.

Benvenutti was too old and he lost before his first meeting with Monzón.

His best win was Valdez, that was a solid win but you can't compare than win with the better win of other Legends, for example the best win of Márquez is Pacquiao, the best win of Durán is Leonard, you can't do this. Thats another point that i have
Briscoe was never a Welterweight. He was a career Middleweight. Maybe you’re confusing him with a different fighter?

Monzón also defeated all but one man (a draw) that he fought in his 100 fight 17 year career and retired on top having defended the undisputed title 14 times. That’s great and hard to belittle by saying “This guy had a better win”, Buster Douglas has a better win than most modern boxers, is he in the discussion of greats? His best win is far better than Larry Holmes. Enough said.

Regarding Griffith, yes he was a smaller Middleweight but don’t forget he also dethroned Dick Tiger for the title and Tiger is probably the best ever African fighter. Griffith prime is Welterweight but he’s still a great Middleweight too.
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:38 PM #56
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
Can you please share w/ me what you consider his greatest wins... and please provide the weights they occurred at?

Can you provide any footage that proves he's Tunney's superior? Or forget that, how about just better than Conn or Spinks?
I agree that Ali was overrated and I can type an entire page to support that position. But I have to disagree with Charles. Ezzard defeated prime Archie Moore 3x, Jimmy Bivins 3x, Joey Maxim 5x, Lloyd Marshall 2x, Charley Burley 2x, Satterfield, Yarosz, Overlin, Elmer Ray (considered one of the hardest punchers of all time), Walcott, Lesnevich, and a fading Louis.

Charles was a classic boxer/puncher. He may not have been the most exciting fighter to watch, but one cannot deny his skill and certainly cannot deny the quality of his resume.

Things to consider about Charles...he started out as a featherweight in the amateurs and was undefeated, he lost a year of his prime serving in the Army during WWII, he killed a man in the ring during his prime and almost quit boxing, and it had a mental impact on him for the rest of his career. He was the only man to go the full 15 round distance with Marciano and many believed he won. If he had fought Marciano today in that rematch he would have won by TKO because no ref or doctor today would have allowed Rocky to continue with that split nose injury.
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:39 PM #57
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Originally Posted by chrisJS View Post
Briscoe was never a Welterweight. He was a career Middleweight. Maybe you’re confusing him with a different fighter?

Monzón also defeated all but one man (a draw) that he fought in his 100 fight 17 year career and retired on top having defended the undisputed title 14 times. That’s great and hard to belittle by saying “This guy had a better win”, Buster Douglas has a better win than most modern boxers, is he in the discussion of greats? His best win is far better than Larry Holmes. Enough said.

Regarding Griffith, yes he was a smaller Middleweight but don’t forget he also dethroned Dick Tiger for the title and Tiger is probably the best ever African fighter. Griffith prime is Welterweight but he’s still a great Middleweight too.
Griffight was old and out of prime when Monzón defeated him

Thats a reality

And thats my point, Rodríguez, Griffith, Briscoe, all fought in different division

Monzon never took the risk when he was a giant in 160 .


Briscoe and Griffith were too short and smalls to 160 pounds

The best african is Nelson and


About Hagler and Monzón, I read an interview in spanish years ago
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:43 PM #58
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Originally Posted by chrisJS View Post
Briscoe was never a Welterweight. He was a career Middleweight. Maybe you’re confusing him with a different fighter?

Monzón also defeated all but one man (a draw) that he fought in his 100 fight 17 year career and retired on top having defended the undisputed title 14 times. That’s great and hard to belittle by saying “This guy had a better win”, Buster Douglas has a better win than most modern boxers, is he in the discussion of greats? His best win is far better than Larry Holmes. Enough said.

Regarding Griffith, yes he was a smaller Middleweight but don’t forget he also dethroned Dick Tiger for the title and Tiger is probably the best ever African fighter. Griffith prime is Welterweight but he’s still a great Middleweight too.

Briscoe was out of prime when Monzón defeated him too.

And Briscoe was not an unbeatable fighter

He Lost a lot of times before the Lost vs Monzón

Thats another reallity

Big wins against better rivals IN PRIME

Thats a very important thing
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:17 PM #59
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Originally Posted by Mexican_Puppet View Post
Griffight was old and out of prime when Monzón defeated him

Thats a reality

And thats my point, Rodríguez, Griffith, Briscoe, all fought in different division

Monzon never took the risk when he was a giant in 160 .


Briscoe and Griffith were too short and smalls to 160 pounds

The best african is Nelson and


About Hagler and Monzón, I read an interview in spanish years ago
No, Briscoe didn't fight in another division. I am unsure where you are receiving this information. Dick Tiger was about 5 6 so obviously short but he wasn't too short for middleweight. In fact he even won the title at 175. Griffith had beaten him just prior to facing Monzon. Griffith wasn't prime but he was not faded. Nelson may look more skilled than tiger but comparing resume's and there is quite some distance. Tiger beat many greats.

Hagler was champion in 1980, so any match with Monzon would have been him pushing 40 and with 3-4 years ring rust minimum. There was no serious discussion. That's like blaming Hagler for not fighting Nunn.

There was no 168 in Monzon's day and only one title so his "risk" would be fighting Bob Foster, an absolute giant who'd fight heavyweights. Why would Monzon move down to 154? He was in the sports second most glamorous division with the second most valued title in boxing. You have to understand the context and the era. He had THE title.

If you like to single out fighters you have an agenda against then which "great" fighter did Chavez beat in their prime for example? There's more than 100 fighters who've defeated a "greater" fighter than Chavez but obviously nowhere near 100 as good as him. It doesn't always work like that. Monzon reigned as the only champion in his division for 7 years and 14 defenses, beat all but one man in 100 fights (a draw), retired as champion. I value an undisputed championship more than a simple title or unification.
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Old 04-30-2019, 06:49 PM #60
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No, Briscoe didn't fight in another division. I am unsure where you are receiving this information. Dick Tiger was about 5 6 so obviously short but he wasn't too short for middleweight. In fact he even won the title at 175. Griffith had beaten him just prior to facing Monzon. Griffith wasn't prime but he was not faded. Nelson may look more skilled than tiger but comparing resume's and there is quite some distance. Tiger beat many greats.

Hagler was champion in 1980, so any match with Monzon would have been him pushing 40 and with 3-4 years ring rust minimum. There was no serious discussion. That's like blaming Hagler for not fighting Nunn.

There was no 168 in Monzon's day and only one title so his "risk" would be fighting Bob Foster, an absolute giant who'd fight heavyweights. Why would Monzon move down to 154? He was in the sports second most glamorous division with the second most valued title in boxing. You have to understand the context and the era. He had THE title.

If you like to single out fighters you have an agenda against then which "great" fighter did Chavez beat in their prime for example? There's more than 100 fighters who've defeated a "greater" fighter than Chavez but obviously nowhere near 100 as good as him. It doesn't always work like that. Monzon reigned as the only champion in his division for 7 years and 14 defenses, beat all but one man in 100 fights (a draw), retired as champion. I value an undisputed championship more than a simple title or unification.
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You're making far too much sense than the average fanboy will ever be able to process. Gotta understand in Peter Pan world, reality takes a different form, so maybe Briscoe was a fleaweight and so on and puppets can fly to Alice in Wonderland and powwow with hobbits and Cats in the Hat.
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