Fraziers Defense Overated

[Layzie Kidd]

Jesus, its just painful to watch. He was tough and had stamina but he gets hit so, so much. Thats why he got destroyed by Foreman. He typically gets lots of praise for his bob and weave style, but I'm thinking whats the point of him using his bobing and weaving style if he isn't using it effectively? Granted, when hes in the zone and is actually paying attention to the punches coming he is good at slipping and bobbing, as demonstrated in the later rounds with Ali but that was never much. I personally think if Frazier had better ability to see punches coming/defense he would've been much better and wouldve ripped Ali and wouldve been up there in the top 3 with Ali and Joe Louis.

[dan_cov]

Who didn't get hit a lot by Foreman, Ali, Bonavena?

His defense was outstanding for a swarmer, how many swarmers had a better D than Smokin' Joe seriously?

Off the top of my head Tyson is the only one that comes too mind. There maybe more but Joes defense was bloody good and right up there with the best.

[MRBOOMER]

Frazier defense isn't great but really good. I mean yeah he got hit but so does any swarmer and pressure fighter. Yes he could bob and weave and slip but he was also good and rolling with a lot of the punches he took and the cross style defense took a lot of the sting off of some of the shots he was also good at parreying jabs

As for the formen style that was a horrible match up for Frazier he just had his number.

If you look at Tyson he got hit hi fair share in his short prime also just a lot were grazing shots and what not but the fights ended so damn fast it never really mattered.

[Ray Corso]

This style is very difficult to maintain as you get older and you add weight! Bending at the waist and utilizing side motions takes flexabilty and tremendous co-ordination because your coming out of these moves looking to punch in combination too! As the weight increases the flexabilty decreases and the speed AND power decrease. Speed is the essentail ingrediant in power, even Big Georges straight right hand came down the pike quickly!
Fellows like Frazier and Tyson got more vunerable as they got older and heavier in their bodies, their maturation was inevetable but in both of their cases going from 205 to 225+ didn't unable them to maintain their methods and hampered their techniques greatly! Both were standing up into punches that they never got hit with at a younger age plus a trimmer body!!

Back in the earlier days agressive styles utilized bending knees more than the waist bends because most trainers felt the defensive move was good and a fighter could come punching quicker!!! Ala Marciano & Dempsey!
I prefer both approaches when teaching a "pressing style" both Mike and Joe forgot their jabs as they got older too and both had very good jabs!! Ray

[dan_cov]

He may of got hit with his fair share of shots but he was very good at taking most of the sting off shots by bobbing & weaving.
Its also a hell of a lot harder to avoid being hit trying to close distance than it is to box from the outside or at mid-range where you have more distance & time to react.

Most fighters today could learn a thing or two from studying Joe. So many upright fighters who haven't an absolute clue on how to slip a shot or move their head.

[Canelo Phresh]

Made Ali miss a helluva lot of punches.

[TBear]

"the best defense is a good offense"


However you can't go by the Foreman fight and after that. Every fighter has that time later in their career where they aren't what they used to be. Unfortunitely newer fans remember the end of a fighters career and think that was how it always was.

[jabsRstiff]

Yes, Frazier was destroyed twice by Foreman...but he also never looked like a complete ****** the way George did against Ali. It is better to be destroyed than embarrassed, IMO.

[TheGreatA]

With the correct opponent Frazier could look like a "prime Tyson". It's just that his main nemesis was Muhammad Ali and it is safe to say that nobody will look a great defensive fighter against Ali while hoping for a chance to actually win.


Frazier Chuvalo by TheGreatA

This is not to say that his defense was anywhere near perfect, everybody knows he had less than stellar eyesight and was not the most gifted of athletes when it came to speed and reflexes. But he made them miss more than he got hit while still in his prime.

[Sugarj]

Jesus, its just painful to watch. He was tough and had stamina but he gets hit so, so much. Thats why he got destroyed by Foreman. He typically gets lots of praise for his bob and weave style, but I'm thinking whats the point of him using his bobing and weaving style if he isn't using it effectively? Granted, when hes in the zone and is actually paying attention to the punches coming he is good at slipping and bobbing, as demonstrated in the later rounds with Ali but that was never much. I personally think if Frazier had better ability to see punches coming/defense he would've been much better and wouldve ripped Ali and wouldve been up there in the top 3 with Ali and Joe Louis.

Frazier's reactions/defense/all round ability was never as good after the first match with Ali. He did leave a little of himself in the ring that night. Up till after the Ali fight his bobbing and head movement were rather better.

I don't think that 1973 Foreman would have had it anything like as easy with 1969-1971 Frazier who was rather more slippy!