Greb-Dempsey sparring footage exists!!!

[Feint]

Unfortunately, Greb just seems to be one of the boxers that “fell through the cracks” in regards to footage (and information in general). It’s such a shame considering he had such a unique fighting style.

That said, for years no one thought any footage existed of Babe Ruth’s “called shot” and that turned up a few years ago, so there is always hope.

[StarshipTrooper]

I wouldn't be shocked if some footage of Greb turns up somewhere but still I'm not going to hold my breath.

The sad thing is a lot of fight film was cannibalized during WWII for it's silver nitrate content and I suspect that Greb's fights were among those lost.

Poet

[klompton]

Its not Greb

An unscrupulous boxing film collector is at it again. For years this guy had a film on his list for sale which was purported to be Dempsey sparring Harry Greb. He took it off after being repeatedly called out on it (If I recall it was actually Dempsey sparring Jock Malone in 1919 prior to the Willard fight which he had edited out of the theatrical version of Dempsey-Willard). Now on his website he has posted several photos of a film which he states is Dempsey sparring Greb. Dont be fooled! This is actually Jack Dempsey sparring Tillie Kid Herman in 1926 prior to Dempsey's first bout with Tunney. It is part of the Fox Movietone News collection and is clearly catalogued as such (despite this guy having his own copyright logo across the stills LOL). Since this guy calls himself "the Expert in the field of Boxing" he should know better and I suspect he keeps doing this to draw out unsuspecting collectors for sales opportunities. I would urge people to steer clear of him.


Do a search on "Dempsey Kid Herman" in the google news archive and you will find plenty of articles describing their sparring in 1926. Below is the catalogue description of the clip in question from the Fox Movietone News Archive:

MVTN B3281 3290: Boxing: Slow Motion Analysis of Dempsey's Form
Date June, 1926
Place Hendersonville, North Carolina, United States
Content Summary Slow motion analysis of Jack Dempsey's form as he trains for his next bout in defense of the title. S1. Long high slow motion of Dempsey fighting in outdoor ring, spectators in background. S2. Closeup slow motion of fighting. S3. A tough job and a job for a tough man is that of sparring partner for the heavyweight champ. Closeup slow motion fighting. Cuts: Dempsey visits Mr. and Mrs. Hughie Jennings. Dempsey with babies. Dempsey and father, Jack Dempsey, Sr., play horseshoes. Additional scenes same subject. Note: Tillie Kid Herman, Farmer Lodge, Johnny Kleaschi, Mike Arnold, Sid Mciver; TEMPORARY DESCRIPTION; used in 7/102 (silent)
Crew Information Reek
Item Characteristics B&W , Silent , 2.61 minutes
Cassette # FILM

Here is his description and you tell me if he is being dishonest:

"These never before seen images of the titanic Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920 come from the original film of that classic sparring session, found deep in the Ringwise vault of oldtime fights.

These images clearly show the 25 pound lighter all time great Middleweight Champion, Harry Greb easily dominating , schooling, playing with the hardest hitting heavyweight Champion of all time Jack Dempsey."

Now lets examine the facts here:

"Never before seen?" Ive had this film for twenty years and known exactly what it was the entire time. As stated above, it is clearly listed and catalogued.

"Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920" In 1920 Dempsey was still wearing his famous whitewall haircut (short on top with shaved sides and back). He would wear his hair like this well into 1921. In the photos Kurt exhibits (and better shown in the film) Dempsey has longer hair on top and the sides arent shaved.

"From the original film found deep in the Ringwise vault" Interesting claim. The original film actually resides at the University of South Carolina. If Kurt is claiming to have this film deep in his vaults why does it have a timecode on it. LOL.


Yes, the Dempsey-Greb sparring footage is mislabeled (either by accident or by design, and knowing the guy who labeled Id say its by design). It is indeed Dempsey sparring Tillie Kid Herman in June of 1926 at Hendersonville, North Carolina while Dempsey was in early training for Tunney. The film was a slow motion newsreel study of Dempsey's form. It can be found in the University of South Carolina archives of the Movietone News collection. Ive had this film for years and even used it in a production I did about the first Dempsey-Tunney fight a few years ago. This footage was acquired years ago from the archive by a friend of mine who traded and sold it here and there. Also part of the collection is the now famous Greb training footage (notice the matching timecodes). Prior to each individual clip on the tapes that had been traded out is a catalogue number which references the footage description. In short, prior to the film of Dempsey supposedly sparring with Greb will be a black screen with the notation:

MVTN B3281 3290

That stands for "MovieTone" and then the catalogue number. Which can be referenced using their search engine to find the description I posted online:

MVTN B3281 3290: Boxing: Slow Motion Analysis of Dempsey's Form
Date June, 1926
Place Hendersonville, North Carolina, United States
Content Summary Slow motion analysis of Jack Dempsey's form as he trains for his next bout in defense of the title. S1. Long high slow motion of Dempsey fighting in outdoor ring, spectators in background. S2. Closeup slow motion of fighting. S3. A tough job and a job for a tough man is that of sparring partner for the heavyweight champ. Closeup slow motion fighting. Cuts: Dempsey visits Mr. and Mrs. Hughie Jennings. Dempsey with babies. Dempsey and father, Jack Dempsey, Sr., play horseshoes. Additional scenes same subject. Note: Tillie Kid Herman, Farmer Lodge, Johnny Kleaschi, Mike Arnold, Sid Mciver; TEMPORARY DESCRIPTION; used in 7/102 (silent)
Crew Information Reek
Item Characteristics B&W , Silent , 2.61 minutes
Cassette # FILM

More importantly nowhere is this listed as Greb. Nowhere. In addition to that when my friend sent those clips out he always sent out typed lists of what each clip contained. There would have been no way to mistake this for Greb and Dempsey in 1920. But lets assume that the guy in question never got a list, or misplaced it, and for whatever reason never thought to check the reference catalogue number. Does that look like a young Dempsey from 1920? Look how much longer his hair is there than it was when he was training for Miske. Furthermore, why would you jump to the conclusion that its Greb? Dempsey sparred with literally dozens of fighters, and far more often than he sparred with Greb. Why would you jump to that conclusion unless you either wanted to mislead people, or you just wanted it to be true so bad that you refused to do diligent research? Seeing as how he has written on his site that he dug out deep out of his own collection (even though it has a time code) and that he has clumsily posted screenshots with a meaningless copyright stamp all over them, I have to think hes actively trying to mislead people.

I wish a film of Greb would pop up as much as anyone. I dont care if its more training footage or an actual fight. The bottom line is this isnt it. This guy has burned the public before, myself included, and hes actually done it in regards to Greb before. I felt it necessary to call him out. I even sent him an email outlining all of this and he never responded.

[New England]

Unfortunately, Greb just seems to be one of the boxers that “fell through the cracks” in regards to footage (and information in general). It’s such a shame considering he had such a unique fighting style.

That said, for years no one thought any footage existed of Babe Ruth’s “called shot” and that turned up a few years ago, so there is always hope.

and it was hardly spectacular. he sort of flatters the idea of calling a shot, but it's hardly the dramatic pose and stare with the bat pointed out there before hauling off and crushing one.

that's honestly what i'm afraid of. i'd love for some greb footage to come out and for him to look spectacular, but i'm starting to doubt that's what he'd looked like. with greb you have his resume. nobody can really touch it, frankly. it is freakish. it's hard to get your mind around a schedule like that if you're like me and you're in your 20's and used to modern boxing.
the guy fought many times a month and he hardly ever lost. he fought a slew of hall of famers. he was all but blind in one eye. just a monster.


if this really is footage of greb sparring dempsey it dispels the damn rumor that greb whipped on him.

one guy is wearing headgear and the other is not. that's a huge deal. that doesnt just change how you can absorb shots to the head, it changes the way you fight. it's not at all an adequate means of determining how a fight between the two would play out. to assume that greb would be anything but a huge dog in the eyes of the people or the bookies is wrong.

harry greb was a popular figure in the culture of the time, but jack dempsey was literally one of the biggest stars on the planet.

[La_Vibora]

Well thanks for clearing that up klompton, atleast we have these images to see:

[La_Vibora]

I wouldn't be shocked if some footage of Greb turns up somewhere but still I'm not going to hold my breath.

The sad thing is a lot of fight film was cannibalized during WWII for it's silver nitrate content and I suspect that Greb's fights were among those lost.

Poet

Sadly you could be right poet. Lets just pray that it is sitting in someone's basement.

[Mikhnienko]

There's Greb footage out there.

I know that a lot of very old timers have claimed that there is footage of Greb-Walker.

Tunney I, Walker, Flowers 2 & 3 are the four fights of his that were filmed i believe.

Didn't the film of it erode and none of the footage could be salvaged ?, I'm pretty sure I've read that there was a documentary type film on Tiger Flowers which contained footage of his fights with Greb and others, same case with the Walker fight, the film eroded and couldn't be saved.

Well the original film would have deteriorated decades ago but if some serious collector has had a Greb fight in his collection it seems unlikely that they would be incompetent enough to let that happen.