What IF...

[K-DOGG]

One of more fun practices of studying boxing history, to me, are the scenarios that could have occured; but didn't. If there was a different universe created for every choice we make, there would be limitless possible futures and results stemming from one particular incident, had it gone a variety of different routes from the way it is recorded in the history books. So, I thought I would put one such scenario up a week and let the nimble minds and knowledgeable experts on these boards examine the "what if" factor, should you choose to do so.

This week's "what if":

What if.....Jack Johnson met James J. Jeffries in 1905?



Have fun.

[K-DOGG]

What?! No takers? I'm the only one that finds this fun?


Nobody's ever thought about Jeffries in his prime at 29/30 taking on Johnson at age 26?!

Do y'all think the result would be exactly the same as a 30 year old Johnson over a 35 year old, been retired for 5 years, lost over 80 Lbs Jeffries??

[K-DOGG]

My Top Ten of "What If's"

1.-What if Johnson met Jeffries in 1905..
2.-What if Schmeling won the second Louis match...
3.-What if Ali went to prison in 1971 after Ali-Frazier I...
4.-What if Tyson kept Rooney and ignored Don King..
5.-What if Leonard had met Pryor..
6.-What if Willie Pep was never in a plane crash..
7.-What if Bowe actually fought Lewis in 1993...
8.-What if Holmes had unified the title in the early 80's...
9.-What if if Johnson had defended againt the other big three...
10.-What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't had that wreck...

[Southpaw Stinger]

Prime Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in my oppinion, and we would have to wait until Joe Louis for the first Black champion.

[K-DOGG]

Prime Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in my oppinion, and we would have to wait until Joe Louis for the first Black champion.

I think he could have; but part of me wonders if Johnson's style would have beaten even a prime Jeff. I don't think Johnson would have stopped a prime Jeffries, though...which makes me wonder if Johnson could have gotten a decision over an American icon.

[Southpaw Stinger]

which makes me wonder if Johnson could have gotten a decision over an American icon.

Thats true. Jeffries could take a lot of punishment so the fight would likely go the distance - and I don't think the judges would give Johnson the nod for some reason....

[j]

jack would beat him. it's not like jeffries had a style that could match jack's crafty D.

it should be remembered that jack's record is a bit deceptive. instead of knocking out fighters as soon as he could, he would toy with them and punish them.

johnson's game was way ahead of his time. he was so far skilled than his opponents that he would frequently give a blow-by-blow commentary to ringside news reporters. he did this even when he fought an aged jeffries.

finally, jim himself had openly stated that he didn't believe that he could've beaten johnson on his best day.

[THE REAL NINJA]

If Jeff beats Johnson we never hear of fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Jennette <'spelling'

• some of mine
• what if ..Liston beat Clay ?
• waht if Foreman beat Ali ?
• what if Patterson never fights Liston ?
• what if Ruddock beat Tyson ?..... he would be next to fight Holy or Buster if he had won
• what if Marciano stuck around to fight Patterson ?
• What if Louis lost to Max the 2nd time ? ...this would have a major impact on ww

funny when you think about how just one small event, one person can change the worlds history

[SABBATH]

My Top Ten of "What If's"

1.-What if Johnson met Jeffries in 1905..
2.-What if Schmeling won the second Louis match...
3.-What if Ali went to prison in 1971 after Ali-Frazier I...
4.-What if Tyson kept Rooney and ignored Don King..
5.-What if Leonard had met Pryor..
6.-What if Willie Pep was never in a plane crash..
7.-What if Bowe actually fought Lewis in 1993...
8.-What if Holmes had unified the title in the early 80's...
9.-What if if Johnson had defended againt the other big three...
10.-What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't had that wreck...

I'll choose a few and have a go.

1) Over a scheduled 45 rounds I would still pick Johnson. Jeffries soaked up punishment in his fights against Corbett, Fitzimmons and Sharkey neither who were comparable to a prime Johnson. Jeffries would force the action and score more to the body looking to wear Johnson down, but Johnson was very relaxed and confident and I still see him biding his time and picking Jeffries apart.

2) Schmeling would have returned to Germany and not left his homeland to defend it. Some predictable defences against European challengers with limited opportunities for US contenders (no blacks, no jews and no contenders who had Jewish managers ). With the onset of WW2 there would be no one to challenge Schmeling and the title would be in hiatus. An ugly messy situation with the belt in turmoil for a few years. Thank you Joe Louis!

3) Depends how long Ali went to prison. If it was for 3 years or more forget it. Foreman reigns for awhile, probably into the 80's if he stays in shape and focused.

4) Kevin Rooney was his trainer, not a miracle worker. Many fighters lose good trainers and continue to have success. Tyson didn't have a champion's mindset, that's what hurt him. Don King may have ripped Tyson off financially but he also extended his career in the 90's by providing easy fights (Razor Ruddock the exception) with big money pay-per-view fights against paper noneties like Henry Tillman, Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon and Frank Bruno (again!) while openly avoiding the top fighters of the time like Holyfield, Foreman, Bowe, and Lewis.

5) Leonard and Pryor is a great and exciting match-up with Leonard winning. Harder puncher, quicker fists, more accurate combinations, taller, stronger and with the better chin and balance. Leonard leads in most categories but Pryor's underrated boxing ability, deceptive reach (same as Leonard's) use of unpredictable angles, aggression, heart, stamina and workrate give "The Hawk" an early lead before Leonard's adaptibilty solves him and wins by late stoppage (gradually wears Pryor down and opens him up with left hook body shots) UD, or catches Pryor flush coming in and finishes him. Rounds 1-5 provides ultimate fireworks.

7) I would still pick Lewis over Bowe due in part to the psychological advantage of having stopped him in The Olympics. Bowe started to gradually regress after he won the title and his poor defence would allow Lewis to catch him and KO him.

8) Holmes-Weaver II would have been a good match-up with Weaver being more experienced and confident in the rematch and Holmes starting to slide a little. A tough fight with Holmes prevailing once again likely by decision. Michael Dokes and Greg Page were the two most talented heavyweights contenders around during Holmes's reign and both had the height, reach, left jab and boxing ability which were the proven ingredients to trouble Holmes. I think on a given night either guy with his 'A' game could have upset Holmes by decision. A shame neither fight was ever made.

10) Salvador Sanchez. A beautiful and complete fighter who had every tool in his arsenal. Sanchez would have likely fought a unification match with Eusebio Pedroza which would have been an extremely difficult matchup. I'll pick Sanchez by very narrow margin before he rules the feathers until he outgrows the division. Look at the rankings of the early 80's. There was no one on the horizon that matched Sanchez at that time although Azumah Nelson was really close.

Up in weight to junior lightweight I would pick Sanchez over the top guys like Rocky Lockridge, Boza Edwards, Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon and Rolando Navarette. A move up to lightweight is where it gets sticky. I would see tough fights with Hector Camacho, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez and later Julio Ceasar Chavez and Pernell Whittaker. I can see him losing fights with at least one of those top guys. In any event Sanchez would still be a top fighter into the late 80's at the very least.

Sanchez was tall for a featherweight (5'7), had a broad shouldered frame, was a solid puncher and was fundamentally solid so he is a very likely candidate to move up and have success in higher weight categories. I don't see him moving up as high as junior welter though.

Quality thread brother K.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Prime to Prime
I pick Jefferies- Not because I'm racist but because I believe that Jefferies proved his abilities aganst more Contenders of the time (not that Johnson could- he was black nobody wanted to fight him).. Jefferies fought Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey...I'm not saying Johnson can't win but I believe prime Jefferies was Physically stronger and hit harder...noted though Johnson was a defensive "wizard" but I think in a really long fight Jefferies could wear Johnson out....