Who's greater in your book: Marciano or Ward

[boliodogs]

If Marciano fought today, he'll be a LHW the size of Beterbiev and I'll take Marciano to KO Ward in 10.

Damn rights. Marciano was no bigger than Ward and weighed 184 in street cloths full of food and liquid. He KOed Archie Moore and Charles who were both better than Ward and could really punch. He would slaughter Ward in a light heavyweight fight in my opinion.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

****ell, Matthews, LaStarza, Layne in that order.


People leave off Rock's non-championship peer group because he beat every contender before he fought the champion and while he was champion they beat the **** out of one another until the generation was post prime.


Let's start with Layne. With Louis out of the way it was obvious Charles and Walcott would have their struggle for supremacy, but, what people wanted to know from source like Ring was who would be the next great champion. Nat Fleischer was still alive and in control of Ring, Ring was at its height, he chose Rex Layne.

I'm not saying Rex is a great win because of this, but, usually, when a great champion exposes a major hypejob of the era that hypejob is included in the champ's resume. Unless he's Marciano. Frank Bruno isn't exactly a great name on Tyson's resume, but, he is a name. I don't honestly believe Rex or Frank were hypejobs, just not as good as people thought, or worse, as good as people thought but the competition has since gotten better than was ever expected.

Rex does have some names, a reason Nat backed him, but, I personally don't think that's even needed. He is the man everyone was watching, Marciano kicked his ass....what else do we need?

LaStarza ia a man who came out of the same general area as Marciano, which is why they fight so early in their careers; they were in competition for the local audience support. LaStarza was much more famous than Marciano much more quickly because Roland pioneered a technique still employed by great defensive fighters today. Check your history, look at what films you can, there was defensive HWs before LaStarza, did any of them ever use the ropes like Ali? LaStarza is the man who brought using the rop[es to absorb energy and elbows to absorb impact damage...yeah, rope-a-dope. First man to do it. Of course he was big ****s. Of course no one saw a way for him to get whooped....until he did.

Roland too has names, Rex is one of them, but again, I don't think it's needed. He's a pioneer, that's why he was big ****s, not because who but how.

Matthews is another story, he was big on the west coast during an era when the west coast did not ****ing matter at all. He takes some early loses, 3, when he's young and inexperienced and matched against men with 100+ victories. He takes his loses, learns, gets revenge and hands his conqueror a few defeats then moves up to HW, goes unbeaten at HW, 55+ win streak, gets a title elim, Marciano whoops his ass, ****ell comes into play and Kid just can not accept Don has his number, three more loses to ****ell, three very avoidable loses if Kid was a ninny or well controlled. Total record? 90-7.....90-7, top ranked, earned his position through the ranks, continued to beat top ranked HWs, hit his wall against one ATG and one new to the scene he was ill prepared for.

Finally we have ****ell. I wholeheartedly believe ****ell is the champion if Marciano did not exist. ****ell moved up to HW because of a medical issue. He struggled at LHW but was only there a short time, he's really a MW with a condition that forced him to HW. He goes unbeaten in the British HW ranks, he kicks Matthews ass, who had already lost to Marciano but had since gone 4-0 against top competition to earn another shot. Kid needed to get past the British sensation, ****ell, he didn't. Then Don went on to kick LaStarza's ass. Roland was coming off the through the ropes Marciano fight. His elbows were shattered by the Rock but his spirit was broken by the Don.

He even gave Marciano a good fight, roughed him up a bit. It was almost like Wilder-Fury in that what people never did was bully Marciano, so Don tried, and it worked real well for him. Much better than boxing would have. Marciano is no Wilder though, and unfortunately for Don the Rock was able to adapt.


****ell- Peer, has a resume himself

Matthews- Peer, has a resume himself

LaStarza- Peer, pioneering technical master, has a serviceable record what with the lowrys and ginos and such

Layne- Peer, hyped to be king by the biggest source for media of his day, decent record




Another way of saying it, using only resume:

Layne beats Walcott in 50

Marciano beats LaStarza in 50

Walcott beats Charles for the title in 51

Layne loses to Marciano 51

Matthews loses to Marciano 52

Walcott loses to Marciano 52

Layne loses to Matthews 52

Layne beats Charles in 52

Layne loses to LaStarza 53

Walcot is retired by Rock in 53

LaStarza is sent through the ropes in 53

****ell beats Matthews in 54

Charles is beaten by Marciano in 54, twice.

****ell beats LaStarza in 54

Marciano KOs ****ell in 55




Point is ****ell, Matthews, LaStarza, and Layne are all resume names.

Isn’t there an argument that LaStarza beat Rock? I remember reading somewhere that Marciano saved himself by scoring a KD and going low regularly. Could be a bias account as I’ve not seen the fight.

I’ve only seen the second fight so I’m only going off what I’ve read, not sure footage is even available tbh.

[FinitoxDinamita]

Resume and H2H, Ward wins.

Im not all that high on Marciano. Im one of the guys who dont overrate old school fighters. 80s was the best to me anyway.

[therealpugilist]

better more skilled fighter who beat his best opponents at or near their best....clear nod for ward

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

Resume and H2H, Ward wins.

Im not all that high on Marciano. Im one of the guys who dont overrate old school fighters. 80s was the best to me anyway.

In terms of pure talent, I think the late 70’s to mid 80’s is the strongest era. Especially from 135-160.

[Marchegiano]

Isn’t there an argument that LaStarza beat Rock? I remember reading somewhere that Marciano saved himself by scoring a KD and going low regularly. Could be a bias account as I’ve not seen the fight.

I’ve only seen the second fight so I’m only going off what I’ve read, not sure footage is even available tbh.

Sure is an argument, the last thing you said is true. There is no film of the their first fight so however you read it you are reading it through the lens of the author. They vary and one can make sense and cling to what feels right to themselves but if one means to be honestly beyond bias then an inclusive approach should at minimum be recognized.


The basics are Rocky scored a KD in the early rounds but he also gave up a point for a low blow near the end.

It was scored a draw actually. One judge went with Marciano 5-4 the other went with LaStarza 5-4 and the ref went no way with 5-5 under then normal scoring conditions. In NY they used supplemental scores to limit draws. They basically stayed the same, one judge says roland, the other rocky, but under this points system the ref saw it 9-6 in favor of Marciano. So he does officially have both a draw and a SD victory with the SD victory overriding the draw.


That said, the press was just as divided as the judges. What's sure is it was a close fight that could have been pointed either way but did go in Marciano's favor. Mostly by luck I'd say. He and Roland earned themselves draws, that's the real result. If it wasn't a time when boxing was trying to have less draws it'd be a draw.

I do not believe there was any foul play or anything like that. Marciano just happened to be using a style more favored by a secondary points system. This is, imo, the down-side to being a pioneer. There was no system ready to award Roland for his tactics beyond the standard. Once you're using a supplemental system you are using a points system that did not anticipate a mane like LaStarza and a boxer who did not train for a points system that is very new.

One could say LaStarza should have known what he was in for and trained accordingly, but, we all know when making the basics of a man's style that's a progression they learn over experiencing fights. Switching the rules up is a bit of a dick move.


So, it's a give and take really. Only reason Roland gave Rock trouble is because Rock was not trained for anything like LaStarza. Inversely the only reason Rock got the nod in the end is because the rules themselves were not prepared to award a man like LaStarza.

IMO, he's very underrated.

It was a ten round fight

[Boxing Goat]

I'm a big Marciano fan but Ward just did more at the top than Rocky did.

[Boxing Goat]

Before we go nuts, let's not make this a H2H matchup. That is not fair. Marciano was a murderous puncher and he would KO Ward with a punch in the ****ing arm so don't even go there, people.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

Sure is an argument, the last thing you said is true. There is no film of the their first fight so however you read it you are reading it through the lens of the author. They vary and one can make sense and cling to what feels right to themselves but if one means to be honestly beyond bias then an inclusive approach should at minimum be recognized.


The basics are Rocky scored a KD in the early rounds but he also gave up a point for a low blow near the end.

It was scored a draw actually. One judge went with Marciano 5-4 the other went with LaStarza 5-4 and the ref went no way with 5-5 under then normal scoring conditions. In NY they used supplemental scores to limit draws. They basically stayed the same, one judge says roland, the other rocky, but under this points system the ref saw it 9-6 in favor of Marciano. So he does officially have both a draw and a SD victory with the SD victory overriding the draw.


That said, the press was just as divided as the judges. What's sure is it was a close fight that could have been pointed either way but did go in Marciano's favor. Mostly by luck I'd say. He and Roland earned themselves draws, that's the real result. If it wasn't a time when boxing was trying to have less draws it'd be a draw.

I do not believe there was any foul play or anything like that. Marciano just happened to be using a style more favored by a secondary points system. This is, imo, the down-side to being a pioneer. There was no system ready to award Roland for his tactics beyond the standard. Once you're using a supplemental system you are using a points system that did not anticipate a mane like LaStarza and a boxer who did not train for a points system that is very new.

One could say LaStarza should have known what he was in for and trained accordingly, but, we all know when making the basics of a man's style that's a progression they learn over experiencing fights. Switching the rules up is a bit of a dick move.


So, it's a give and take really. Only reason Roland gave Rock trouble is because Rock was not trained for anything like LaStarza. Inversely the only reason Rock got the nod in the end is because the rules themselves were not prepared to award a man like LaStarza.

IMO, he's very underrated.

It was a ten round fight

Thanks for the info man. Crazy to think had it not been for a specialised NYC rule that Marciano would have been 48-0-1, you could imagine the ripple effect upon future boxing. Holmes would have actually equalled Rocks ledger after beating Williams. Michalczewski possibly would have retired at 48-0 as he was chasing Marciano’s 49-0. Completely hypothetical though...

[aboutfkntime]

I'm going with Marciano based on my impression that at the same size Ward wouldn't have the firepower to hurt Marciano. If he tried to play dirty Marciano would match him in that department. He wouldn't wait for the judge to do something like Kessler did he would take matters into his own hands.

If Marciano fought today, he'll be a LHW the size of Beterbiev and I'll take Marciano to KO Ward in 10.

I don't think the question was head-to-head... ?