Do you think sonny listons camp knew they had a formidable challange in cassius clay

[rightsideup]

I know the odd's were 7 to 1 or something like that but dundee would not have taken the fight if he thought ali would get hammered. Any thoughts or comments?

[res]

I suspect they didn't after the Doug Jones fight and the Cooper knock down.

[Sugarj]

Na Liston expected an easy pushover defense.

The form Clay showed that night was vastly superior to what he showed in the Jones or Cooper fights.

[Scott9945]

Na Liston expected an easy pushover defense.

The form Clay showed that night was vastly superior to what he showed in the Jones or Cooper fights.

Absolutely. And a lot of people were surprised at how much bigger Clay was than Liston. It was obvious that Sonny had only trained for a short fight.

[Capaedia]

Liston took lots of opponents lightly, never quite trained properly to his trainers lament. But I'm sure you'd understand why his trainer was reluctant to try and force him to train properly.

Can't really blame him for not training properly, based on how rudely and painfully he dealt with his opponents prior to Ali (with the exception being Marty Marshall).

He would often neglect putting in the roadwork and try to focus on sparring.

But he had the physical dimensions and gifts to destroy most of the men he faced, none the less. Very heavy hands and very strong.

But he needed more than that to beat Clay. Unfortunately (I would say)

[Anthony342]

What is it with big punchers after their first loss? They seem to never be the same. Sometimes they look like their old tough selves, but then not others. Is it that they no longer have that mystique after someone stands up to their power? Is it just that they have nothing else to fall back on or is it something else?

[Capaedia]

What is it with big punchers after their first loss? They seem to never be the same. Sometimes they look like their old tough selves, but then not others. Is it that they no longer have that mystique after someone stands up to their power? Is it just that they have nothing else to fall back on or is it something else?

Liston's first loss was in his 8th fight, when Marty Marshall broke his jaw and decisioned him.

He was already past prime by the time he fought Ali though. He was blocked from a title shot and built up the majority of his signature wins before he even got into the same room as Patterson.

Otherwise, yes, that is probably true to some extent. I'd say it has to do with the aura of invincibility going. Of course there are plenty of exceptions.

[Daddy T]

No, Liston thought he would KO him in one or two rounds, and after the famous weigh in, Joe Louis amoungst others went and placed a massive bet on liston to win early. Everybody especially Sunny thought it would be an easy fight for him.

His training for the fight was as a result medicore ... kinda going through the motions but not pushing himself that hard. The real balls of the Liston Clay fights is that we missed what could have been a truly epic rematch. Liston got himself into perhaps the best shape of his career for the rematch (well the best shape he possibly could at his age) but then Ali got a stomach ulcer (or something similiar) and had to be rushed to hospital the fight was postponed and Liston went into depression. He started drinking again and his training went to pot. He was even getting beat up in sparring before the rematch so much so that they had to switch out sparring partners cause they were giving him too rough a time and bring in complete bums for him to beat up on. (I know Dempsy used to bring in bums for his last few days of sparring so he could beat the crap out of them and knock them all over the place to boost his confidence - but this was different, they had to bring them in cause Sunny was in such crap condition)

[Sugarj]

No, Liston thought he would KO him in one or two rounds, and after the famous weigh in, Joe Louis amoungst others went and placed a massive bet on liston to win early. Everybody especially Sunny thought it would be an easy fight for him.

His training for the fight was as a result medicore ... kinda going through the motions but not pushing himself that hard. The real balls of the Liston Clay fights is that we missed what could have been a truly epic rematch. Liston got himself into perhaps the best shape of his career for the rematch (well the best shape he possibly could at his age) but then Ali got a stomach ulcer (or something similiar) and had to be rushed to hospital the fight was postponed and Liston went into depression. He started drinking again and his training went to pot. He was even getting beat up in sparring before the rematch so much so that they had to switch out sparring partners cause they were giving him too rough a time and bring in complete bums for him to beat up on. (I know Dempsy used to bring in bums for his last few days of sparring so he could beat the crap out of them and knock them all over the place to boost his confidence - but this was different, they had to bring them in cause Sunny was in such crap condition)

Even worse than a stomach ulcer, Ali got a hernia. He said it was the most pain he had ever suffered in his groin......

[Anthony342]

What about the rumors of Liston taking a dive in the second fight and possibly betting against himself and losing to stick it to the mob, who owned his contract? Any truth to any of that?