MUSCLE MASS AND SIZE of modern heavyweights vs older generations

[Bundana]

LOL @ Ray talking about lack of respect... completely surreal!

[The Old LefHook]

Ray is not here to babysit a bunch of fools. I can't help wondering why he is here then?

If you are a medical doctor participating on a forum with only patients and a few nurses, you have to expect some pretty ignorant questions from a doctor's point of view. Why would you stay on a forum where you seem to be constantly aggravated by the discussions?

When you were attacked constantly and unreasonably, we defended you. If you had not been appreciated, we would not have.

So you can relax, my friend. Many are here to learn.

So what about the prospect of increasing power in a weak puncher? Is it pretty easy to do if they cooperate, or are naturally weak punchers a harder job than increasing power in a fighter who has power naturally? Which one, both hard workers, would you normally expect the most percentage increase in power from, if I may gently ask?

[them_apples]

It matters a lot

Foreman came back against guys like Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer, guys who started their careers at light heavyweight.

Now Holyfield was a guy who could go toe to toe with the big guys.

But even Bowe and Lewis were 6'4.5" or 6'5"at most

not 6'6-6'9" like the current guys

you obviously didn't watch Georges comeback. Wasn
't Cooney 6 ft 6? his easiest fights were against the big lug heads.

Foreman was a strong man to begin with, no amount of training can make your wrists bigger.

and no. Foreman in his youth destroys all the big men of today. He was stronger and more powerful. I spar all the time with heavier guys, some are weak as **** its just dead weight. Some little guys are strong. its one thing to just weigh the person, but look at how they are built, the shape of the muscle, the bone structure etc. what if a guy is 250 with skinny arms and a thick mid section? what if he has small bones but a lot of muscle built over top - that will tire him out and slow him down - sort of like watching Norton Decline the more jacked up he got. He started lobbing his shots at one point like fights today do, because it's all dead weight. at 205 Norton was fast with stamina for days. a 225-235 he was sluggish and slow. Foreman on the other hand, was powerful at 225.

The funny thing is, when yo go to an actual boxing gym - the weight on the scale is almost never talked about because it literally means nothing. Obviously you work with guys around your weight class - but its the fans that seem to worship the tale of the tape.

[AlexKid]

you obviously didn't watch Georges comeback. Wasn
't Cooney 6 ft 6? his easiest fights were against the big lug heads.

Foreman was a strong man to begin with, no amount of training can make your wrists bigger.

and no. Foreman in his youth destroys all the big men of today. He was stronger and more powerful. I spar all the time with heavier guys, some are weak as **** its just dead weight. Some little guys are strong. its one thing to just weigh the person, but look at how they are built, the shape of the muscle, the bone structure etc. what if a guy is 250 with skinny arms and a thick mid section? what if he has small bones but a lot of muscle built over top - that will tire him out and slow him down - sort of like watching Norton Decline the more jacked up he got. He started lobbing his shots at one point like fights today do, because it's all dead weight. at 205 Norton was fast with stamina for days. a 225-235 he was sluggish and slow. Foreman on the other hand, was powerful at 225.

The funny thing is, when yo go to an actual boxing gym - the weight on the scale is almost never talked about because it literally means nothing. Obviously you work with guys around your weight class - but its the fans that seem to worship the tale of the tape.

I think a big part of it is our instinct we are programmed by evolution to over estimate a large person or animal and this is no doubt an effective instinctual assessment for safety, but it isnt the truth, Ive seen huge guys too that punch less than my skinny friend its hard to believe but real.

To me there are some good gened people around and they are stronger and faster etc than they look or than their size and this can also apply to big people, once you get a big guy thats also naturally very strong for his weight then you have a very dangerous man, until then its just size that is much less potent than you feel it is

Performance is whats important period, how hard you hit, how strong you are, how durable you are your endurance levels, speed, etc

When you get a group of men together of all difference sizes and shapes and you arm wrestle or some other strength test etc who ever is the winner is the strongest best man period for that attribute and it typically isnt the biggest guy that wins, not from my experience anyway, its usually me that wins

[The Old LefHook]

Exactly how good can the stamina of a muscle elephant become? Is I.B.'s example against Tua real or PED induced, for that would have to be the standard of stamina for all muscle elephants, if a fair, clean performance? First a matter of definitions.

Tyson Fury, Klitschko and Wilder are galoots, not muscle elephants, though the latter two possess lots of muscle.

Joshua and I.B. are flat out muscle elephants. Joshua's thighs are like mini cement mixers.

Kenny Norton was a muscle elephant of his day, and had good stamina, though he would look slim next to muscle elephants that came after. Mike Weaver was another one, but he had the stamina and lethargy expected of a muscle elephant.

George Foreman was a mountain of muscle in his day, but no muscle elephant. He had the stamina of a mini galoot, which he was. Same with Cleveland Williams.

No former muscle elephant compares to later ones for muscle mass, except maybe Carnera at heavyweight and Tom Sharkey at about super middle fighting heavies. Sharkey had legendary stamina. These were natural elephants, so we know it can be done. This makes the case of I.B. much more intriguing. He might have gotten his muscles the natural way, and he might have been able to train his stamina the way Sharkey did.

Still, his performance against Tua is so energetic from start to finish that I was immediately suspicious. If we lost someone that good who was PED-free, hardcore boxing fans can mourn the loss in entertainment, though all scumbags have to be put away. I.B., like Tony "the tiger," Ayala before him, had several chances to reform. Certain types of socipaths cannot reform, i.e. all types.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Everybody needs to act like Ray Corso. Cut the crap and be a ****ing real man.

[The Old LefHook]

Everybody needs to act like Ray Corso. Cut the crap and be a ****ing real man.

You sound like a fine role model yourself. You sound like a real man. We need more husky men.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

You sound like a fine role model yourself. You sound like a real man. We need more husky men.

I just like the way Ray tells it like it is.

[jack p]

I think it matters for punching power, but Joe Louis still hits harder than Tyson Fury despite massive weight differences.

Now put some modern muscle mass on Joe Louis and I bet he hits harder than how he did at his natural weight. But not much harder

So modern heavyweights are closing the gap on power with extra size but it isnt as significant as the raw punching ability.

But it still matters.

I think a 220lb Foreman has a harder time competing with modern heavyweights than a 260lb Foreman in much the same way its harder for a lower weight division fighter to compete in the division above him even if he has better natural talent.

I also think David Haye wouldn't have done as well at HW if he didnt put on the extra weight if had stayed his cruiser weight size his punches would have been less significant and durability less

The size range height and weight (durability/power) counts for something, but by no means makes up for raw talent or power

Actually when you say extra mass on Louis equates with more power you are forgetting the reason why he cut weight for a fight.Same reason Dempsey cut 25-30 lbs for a fight.Now if you think that extra weight gives them more power then don't you ask yourself why don't they think so to?
If its so obvious to you don't you wonder why they can't see it?
Or do you just don't think about it and prefer to assume something without testing your theory?..Unlike say scientists who assume very little and test every assumption and then have other scientists test it before
coming up with a hypothesis..
A clue "that extra weight slows them down'

How a fighter generates power can vary.
Marciano's came from his legs
Dempsey's came from hurling his body weight.
Hearns came from the speed his punch was traveling that long looping overhand right was traveling at high velocity when the Hitman lowered the boom.
George Foreman's was through heavy handed power he was so strong that even if he was off balance he could still
punch with frightening power.
Mind you many other more factors are involved
the least of which was an extra 20 30 40 lbs.
lbs

[dricas24]

I think it matters a lot!