Can you call this fight?

[The Old LefHook]

Burley seems, in fact, right out of the mold of Ezzard Charles--i.e., speed only sufficient but with a high boxing IQ, a counter puncher more than an attacker, very defensively responsible, and no crowd pleaser.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Burley seems, in fact, right out of the mold of Ezzard Charles--i.e., speed only sufficient but with a high boxing IQ, a counter puncher more than an attacker, very defensively responsible, and no crowd pleaser.

Have you seen Ezzard Charles fight?

Charles had Gavilan and Napoles qualties about him.

He beat Burley, as I mentioned, by bullying him.

As I said , there's two ways to cut that: Burley was amidst his most competitive series w/ Williams. The Charles fights were like layers in a club sandwich.

Charles was a little bit bigger, and a lot greener. It could be that Burley had simply dismissed him as a threat.

Look at Duran vs.Leonard II. Leonard's win is still huge, but it probably only happened because Duran thought he was showing up for nothing more than a victory lap.
We see it in MMA all the time: St. Pierre's loss to Serra, Miocic's loss to Corimer, McGregor's loss to Khabib, and Dillashaw's loss to Cejudo. It's not that the challengers weren't great, but the champions certainly didn't think so, and they paid the price.

But wiht Burley that seems to either be a trend, or he really couldn't handle bigger fighters who brought the pressure.

The post Billeau shared highlights his old-school style. But that style became a artificat as Boxers learned to adjust their stance and style to be better at offense. Look at how revolutionary Dempsey was.
Eventually you get a guy like Cuz D'Amato teaching the peak-aboo style.

It's very unnatural, but Boxing itself is unnatural. How many Boxers do you see succeeding in MMA? A lot of what you learn in Boxing you have to unlearn for Kickboxing, and basically have to scrap for MMA, or you'll get destroyed fast. If you look at a guy like Kilbane or Mcfarland or Wilde, you'll actually see Burley is the missing link between old school fighters and guys doing the modern sport/game..

[Rusty Tromboni]

He made his American debut against Harold Green (who was not putting asses in seats either) instead of Burley. This doesn’t necessarily suggest a duck, but he certainly knew his chances of winning his debut were far greater against Green.

Burley didn’t play ball with the mob, so compound that with a style that wasn’t great for television and you have a great fighter who couldn’t be sold to promoters and networks.

It was someone who would stand there and take a shellacking. That's great for business. Just ask Wilder.

Look Sammy Angot, willie Meehan, Joe Calzaghe, and Yopung Griffo all have amazing scalps on their record. Not one of them ranks in his respective division's top 10. Now, they were all of varying levels of talent, but they all share the fact that they made fights ugly and great fighters usually couldn't look great fighting them. I am sure Burley wasn't exactly that kind of guy, but you can see Cerdan's thinking.

He certainly was more consistent, active and a better finisher. We know from Leonard-Hearns and Ali-Foreman, among others, how meaningless that actually can be. But the point is, he had earned his moment, while Burley had allowed his to pass by.

aAnd again, Burley seemed to struggle w/ guys who brought the fight. Look at Maidana and Castillo's initial perofrmances with Mayweather. On paper, they're far from his best opposition, but they gave him fits that big name fighters couldn't.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Burley prob by decision. Cerdan was underrated a little I think, and of course his career was cut short but Burley was in another class imo. He fought a lot of VERY good black fighters that others esp the champs avoided. He had some losses but he fought often and against bigger fighters. Ezz Charles was too big(and damn good)and so was Holman Williams,Marshall and Moore, but he beat Williams a few times and nearly KOed Moore. His record vs top fighters was better then Cerdans wins imo. Also beat Zivic a few times. The story about SRR avoiding him is a bit misleading by 1942 he was at 160 while SRR was just moving up from lightweight by 41 or so. Nice MM though!

As I have already said, many of those fighters were still Middleweights, and certainly none had hit their prime. MArshall was the best offensively (at that point) but he was a Mugabi sort. very wild. A bigger puncher than Cerdan. but far less refined and efficient.

Burley would eventually edge-out Williams, but Williams was a fellow Welter-come-Middleweight, and suffered chronic hand injuries. Burley scored at least one KO win over Williams, but when Williams won it tended to be by virtue of his hand speed.

Again, we can't compare Williams' handspeed to Cerdan's. But even if he were quicker, Cerdan certainly was better overall offensively. And we have no reason to question Cerdan's chin or gameness.
LaMotta and Zale had their hands full with him.

LaMotta lost to a lot of the guys that Burley beat (broke even with). But LaMotta was defending his belt (which will bring out the best of a fighter) against a Cerdan whom he injured with a foul. Unlike the Black Muderers' Row opponents who met LaMotta, Cerdan fought almost the entirety of the bout severely injured. He still did a lot of damage to LaMotta - probably more effective in those rounds than anyone other than Robinson ever was. And I doubt any of the Black Murderers' Row fighters were pegged at 2-1 Favorites over Jake.

Being a Wrestler, having seen the effects of that kind of injury, I know how tough Cerdan was - trying running with a busted shoulder, let alone having someone try to hurt you. I seriously question if Burley or anyone else LaMotta ever faced was that tough. I'd have to see it to believe it. The evidence definitely suggests otherwise.

It's just like working dogs: you don't care so much how hard the dog bites, but that he bites, and that he won't let go until told to. Sounds more like Cerdan than Burley.

[The Old LefHook]

Look Sammy Angot, willie Meehan, Joe Calzaghe, and Yopung Griffo all have amazing scalps on their record. Not one of them ranks in his respective division's top 10.

You mean you've got at least 10 guys ahead of Calzaghe at Super middleweight? Who are they, in that case?

[Rusty Tromboni]

You mean you've got at least 10 guys ahead of Calzaghe at Super middleweight? Who are they, in that case?

You mean you actually take the "Super Middleweight" division seriously? Even by your typical standards, that's disappointing.

Of all the ridiculous and useless sub-divisions of the Original 8 that might be the most useless.

Usually when people talk about rankings in a historical context they are talking about the original 8. That's a given. Now some divisions are actually pretty established historically, like Jr. Lightweight. But I dunno anyone who really cares about 168. I am sure no one would miss it if it disappeared tomorrow.

[QueensburyRules]

You mean you actually take the "Super Middleweight" division seriously? Even by your typical standards, that's disappointing.

Of all the ridiculous and useless sub-divisions of the Original 8 that might be the most useless.

Usually when people talk about rankings in a historical context they are talking about theooriginal 8. That's a given. Now some divisions are actually pretty established historically, like Jr. Lightweight. But I dunno anyone who really cares about 168. I am sure no one would miss it if it disappeared tomorrow.

- -Disappear and see from the Ethernet how many miss you.

00000000000.000000000000

[Rusty Tromboni]

He made his American debut against Harold Green (who was not putting asses in seats either) instead of Burley. This doesn’t necessarily suggest a duck, but he certainly knew his chances of winning his debut were far greater against Green.

Burley didn’t play ball with the mob, so compound that with a style that wasn’t great for television and you have a great fighter who couldn’t be sold to promoters and networks.

Turns out he had ALREADY BEAT Holman Williams and Abrams in France.

This was when Williams was better than Burley - if such a statement can be made.

Both put up good fights, but lost. In fact, Cerdan not only beat Williams in hist first go, he did so w/o the use of his right hand.

Something Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall and Bert Lytell couldn't say.


turns out Green wasn't Cerdan's first stateside fight, but the dude had an AMAZING career at that point, and really had no justification for sitting on the side-lines any longer.

Look at Fury-Wallin. You can be far, far greater than your opponent, and still have a bad night. People won't remember how-lopsided that fight was. They'll remember how the cut had Fury walking a tightrope, and the final-round rally Wallin put on*. Every fight matters. By this point in his career, Cerdan knew that as much as anyone ever has.


*Off-topic rant:
Lucky for Fury, he has unfinished business w/ Wilder, or else this fight, even though a clear win, could've put him at the back of the line for another title shot. Honestly, I won't be surprised if Wilder - assuming he beats Ortiz - doesn't try to use Fury's "poor" performance as his emergency exit out of a rematch. The winner of Joshua-Ruiz II won't prove half the challenge Fury is, and will probably always be the underdog.

[The Old LefHook]

You mean you actually take the "Super Middleweight" division seriously? Even by your typical standards, that's disappointing.

Of all the ridiculous and useless sub-divisions of the Original 8 that might be the most useless.

Usually when people talk about rankings in a historical context they are talking about the original 8. That's a given. Now some divisions are actually pretty established historically, like Jr. Lightweight. But I dunno anyone who really cares about 168. I am sure no one would miss it if it disappeared tomorrow.

I's a division, get used to it!

You squalling little piece of shìt. Your whole problem is that I called you out and alerted the world to the fact you are only on QB's level.

You are no boxing scholar, so stop acting like an expert. You are nobody around here or around anyplace else, either.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I's a division, get used to it!

You squalling little piece of shìt. Your whole problem is that I called you out and alerted the world to the fact you are only on QB's level.

You are no boxing scholar, so stop acting like an expert. You are nobody around here or around anyplace else, either.

Thanks, Spaz.

let me ask you, what does being so emotionally unhinged do for you? You tried to entrap me. I stayed calm and side-stepped. You can be disappointed, sure. But to get that angry suggests there's a lot wrong with you.

You've been on a good kick, lately. Making very interesting threads and having good contributions. I dunno why you get so pissy over things that don't matter. Relax. Have some whiskey. And enjoy Boxing.