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Old 05-01-2019, 06:07 PM #72
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
I agree that Ali was overrated and I can type an entire page to support that position. But I have to disagree with Charles. Ezzard defeated prime Archie Moore 3x, Jimmy Bivins 3x, Joey Maxim 5x, Lloyd Marshall 2x, Charley Burley 2x, Satterfield, Yarosz, Overlin, Elmer Ray (considered one of the hardest punchers of all time), Walcott, Lesnevich, and a fading Louis.
Let me premise by saying he's a marvelous fighter. But people are exaggerating his skills and achievement. Often they conflate his career. It happens w/ a lot of fighters. They also over-correct. Again, that happens w/ a lot of fighters.

For example: he carried some considerable weight into the bouts w/ Burley. His fights w/ Burley also sandwiched a bout w/ Williams. Burley might've still been at the heighth of his powers, and Charles still relatively raw. But it seems pretty apparent that Burley's focus was more on his archrival, and that size and youth were the deciding factor.

Likewise, Walcott bested him, and Louis was a shell of his former self.

Again, a lot of impressive names on his resume. I don't wanna spend too much time scrutinizing every opponent and every fight, but some of those name are famous for being famous... it's circular logic: why is Joey Maxim/Lesnevich/Bivins great? Because he faced Ezzard Charles great? Because he beat: Maxim/Bivins/Lesnevich.

Do we have film evidence to work with? Johnson was a fabulous fighter, but it definitely looks like Loughran was better. Moore might have been even better, but was he as good as Tunney? Nope. Much more substantial record. Much more gaudy KO record. Much more fanfare. Much more longevity. But the film shows Tunney's better than Moore. Better than Charles, too.

How about Conn? I won't say he was ruined by the War, but his career was essentially over at 24. We never saw a 24 year old Charles dare to fight Louis. Hell, he couldn't put away Maxim in 5 attempts, while Billy stopped the bigger and better Bob Pastor in 13 rounds.

Again, it's about more than H2H match-ups, or film footage. But when we consider criteria, do "precociousness", "over-coming disadvantages", or "advancing the sport' not have their place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
Charles was a classic boxer/puncher. He may not have been the most exciting fighter to watch, but one cannot deny his skill and certainly cannot deny the quality of his resume.
Wemay never know. It actually sounds like he was a complete boxer-pncher, and he liked to tear into an opponent. He was relentless. Maybe one of the best ever offensively. But like many masters, he'd give away early rounds to figure opponents out. Sometimes he went too hard, and paid for it. But usually he was impossible to out-gun, and in the rare instances he was, he out-boxed his opponents.

But again where is the footage? And what does it matter?

Have you seen Canzoneri? McLarnin? Ross? What does Charles have over any of them? At least we can verify their ability on film?

How about Ortiz? He was pretty complete? How come he doesn't wind up in any P4P top 10 lists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

Things to consider about Charles...he started out as a featherweight in the amateurs and was undefeated, he lost a year of his prime serving in the Army during WWII, he killed a man in the ring during his prime and almost quit boxing, and it had a mental impact on him for the rest of his career. He was the only man to go the full 15 round distance with Marciano and many believed he won. If he had fought Marciano today in that rematch he would have won by TKO because no ref or doctor today would have allowed Rocky to continue with that split nose injury.
yup. I know all that. It's pretty common in boxing to have that kinda bio. It's like the Academy Award... every winner is the best ever... until next year's winner is announced.

Charles was great. Top 25 for sure. But people push him into the top 10 - the better half of it, actually. It's great he's getting love for his achievements. But should it come at the expense of those more deserving?
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