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Old 12-15-2012, 07:39 AM #9
crold1 crold1 is offline
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral to one of the greats - jas 

Originally Posted by stretchedout View Post
Marquez is a legend, the man just has Pacquiao's number.

He is simply better than Pacquiao. Pac has more high-end wins, but Marquez has better substance. When he moved up, Marquez beat better fighters who were legitimately ranked higher in each division. The guys he beat were on top of their game , no catch-weight bullsh1t, no old age pensioners, no contractual manipulation..... and Marquez is prepared to prove that his achievements are legitimate by undertaking any and all testing protocol.

Cliff, if you are sure that Pacquiao won at least 1 of the fights, you should have been able to tell us which one
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Fuk the spirit of fair play, I have all of those fights, I cant find one that I can give to Manny. I think Pac was lucky to get away with a draw in the 1st, I think he knows he lost the 2nd, and we dont need to discuss the 3rd and 4th.

A great read.
I did say which one in the pre-report card, though I scored for him live on the one most didn't (third). I think the third fight was extremely close. The draw in the first is perfectly fair. Rewatching recently, I thought Pac won the second pretty clean. When both were at their absolute physical peak, Pac was a better.

I don't think any of the results were a robbery. I don't think either man has that much more substance but that scale still weighs to Pacquiao slightly.

Marquez made a lot of bad career choices at times, and got some forced on him early in his career. Not taking a rematch with Pac in 2005 was on him, not Pacquiao. Over the last two years, he was fighting lesser lights than Pacquiao between the Pacquiao fights with no criticism. While he was fighting guys like Terdsak, Pac was pushing into stardom. He doesn't just have more high end wins...he accomplished more period.

If JMM had got the decision the first time, maybe the roles reverse. History didn't play out that way.

As to no old men, Marquez beat Barrera well after Pac knocked out a P4P streaking MAB and got Casamayor two fights removed from the Santa Cruz abortion. Both still outstanding wins, but it's revisionism to pretend either wasn't faded.

Head to head, Marquez has the most decisive win of the series in a fight where he was actually, and deservedly, behind. GREAT shot but it doesn't erase that these two just push each other to a veritable standstill. It's close as hell, all the time. I would agree with JMM's assessment that he is the smarter figheter, but Manny's game pushes his ring intellect to the absolute limit and vice versa. It's beautiful stuff.

As to the WAYYYYYY oversatted catchweight thing (and I was critical of it in Cotto BECAUSE I thought it undercut Pacquiao's run more than the fight itself where I didn't see ANY impact in the ring by asking Cotto to lose one more pound than he had come in the fight before), I'll just quote from Bread Edwards over at BTalk earlier this week. Not precisely how I'd put it, but close enough:

Some HATERS claim Manny has been matched so carefully and he always has the advantages. That’s so not true. I can’t think of another multiple division champion who was the BIG underdog in his first 3 title tries. In his first title try against Chatchai Sasukal {WBC flyweight title, 1998) he went on the road against a top 25 p4p type and got a KO. In his second title try against Ledlho Ledwaba (IBF 122-pound title), he took the fight on two weeks notice against the best guy in the division and stopped him. Then they brought him in to showcase him against Marco Antonio Barerra and he moved up and brutalized him. Then he immediately fought the next best guy in the division in Marquez. After that Morales in a trilogy…. When did this guy get matched carefully?

He moved up to welterweight after one fight at lightweight. He didn’t get to test any of the waters. How was that careful? 90% of the people thought Oscar would kill him. There was nothing careful about jumping from 135 to 147 in one fight.

He then took on the best fighter in the division in Miguel Cotto. And he fought the guy that many thought beat Cotto in Joshua Clottey. Again I don’t see careful matchmaking. He also fought Margarito who was always a BIG welterweight who never did much over 147. So Manny lets him come in at 150lbs and wear 8oz gloves and gets outweighed by almost 20 pounds on fight night. What the hell was so careful about that?

Manny then takes on an undefeated p4p fighter in Tim Bradley sandwiched by two fights with the one person who has his number in JM Marquez. If people would take off their hater shades they would see this man fought the fights.

Next they call him the Catchweight King. The man was the protagonist in 2 catchweight fights. Miguel Cotto and Antonio Margarito. That’s it. Now I admit the Margarito fight was a BS title fight, but it was a REAL fight in the ring. To allow a big welterweight to come in at 150, when you can’t even eat up to 147 at the time is not beneficial. And to ask Cotto to come in 1lb under his previous fight was more so mind games in my opinion. Speaking of catchweights Cotto fought Margarito at a catchweight and never got a bad word of press.

JM Marquez is the dog of all dogs but in his third fight with Pacquiao he asked for a catchweight of 144lb and that was a title fight. Not one person complained. Marquez also asked for a catchweight against Floyd at 144 but was burned. He didn’t get flack for asking for a catchweight and Floyd didn’t get flack for coming in 2lbs over. But Manny is the Catchweight King….

So many great fighters have fought at catchweights over the years but Manny gets the nickname the Catchweight King. Smh. I can name too many. I dare someone to ask me.

Last edited by crold1; 12-15-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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