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In the Floyd-Dempsey thread Willie and I started to talk about Jack's best wins. I thought it was pretty interesting and was kinda shocked at how unfamiliar I am with outside input on Dempsey's career. I'd like more folks to tell me who they reckon was Jack's best and why. Full career, not just title fights.
I'm just going to copy and paste the interaction between Willie and I that prompted the question to get this thread going:
Originally posted by Marchegiano
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Originally posted by Willie Pep 229
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Originally posted by Marchegiano
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That's fair, I think at the time I was referring to George and Firpo. Those are the names I am used to seeing, but, since that post I've had my first baby and boy I can't remember this or where I was mentally at all. So let's just go off yours and if I feel the need I'll add to it.
Willard is possibly the weakest full champion of all time. Full as in not a titlist or pretense. Lineal or undisputed = full. I like every champion before him more for sure and then after him there are only the 30s guys I am unsure of. I think Primo takes him though. Not so sure about Sharkey, Braddock, or Bear. I don't know them as well as i do Willard or Primo.
Maybe I'm harsh on him, but, I've never once seen anyone go in for Willard being anything but one of several giant white dudes in a series that lasted a while, while JJ reigned. Someone had to be there at the right time. I don't think I've seen anyone list Willard as a great win. Then again I did say Jack's best not his great wins so that's plenty fair. Given everyone else is sad sacks Willard's got to be one of the better.
Yes Firpo did lose to Wills but before that he lost to Dave Mills for the SA HW title.
Carpentier - Dixie Kid and Jeanette both took him out prior to Dempsey, not after. That's at least Siki, Dixie, and Joe who took him out.
Miske got beaten by Norfolk twice and each time Dempsey fought Miske afterward. Flynn called Dempsey a duck when Norfolk was trying to get the Dempsey fight.
I'll give you Gibbons free and clear. To be honest no one ever acts like he's a good HW from the era but clearly he was. I don't think I had ever looked at him prior. Good HW, fought blacks and foreigners too, and, won.
Brennan I'm not so sure about. He didn't seem to fight black men himself and so it's difficult to just give him a pass. He's lost to men who lost to colored champions and has no wins over anyone with wins over colored champions. Dude's really an Irish domestic level fighter who got the Dempsey lottery.
That covered, I did say his best wins, not his best wins as champion.
Porky Dan - Norfolk, Jeanette, John Lester, and Langford
Pelkey - Norfolk, Jeanette, Battling Jim, and McVea. I think maybe Wills too but I don't remember and didn't pull him up. It's not that important given that's already four names.
Gunboat - Norfolk, Wills, and Tate
Fireman - Langford and Jack Johnson, to my knowledge...dude had a big career.
Probably should have said that about a lot of these guys actually. Not like Gunboat had a small one.
Sharkey was a good win wasn't he? He only lost to Louis to my knowledge. Had wins over some good colored champ prior to the Jack fight and did not lose to one until after the Jack fight. I'd give Dempsey Sharkey.
So, in my opinion, his best wins in order:
Sharkey
Gibbons
Willard
Brennan
There are plenty of names that jump out at me but not knowing where they were at the time makes me more leary to speak to them.
It's not Wills I bother Jack's fans over. It's Norfolk. Clearly Norfolk was one of the best p4p and HWs of his era and never got a fair shake. I mean just look at how often I mention him and the chronology that goes with. Dempsey should have fought Norfolk for sure.
I don't think Miske, Firpo, Carpentier, Porky, Fireman, or Gunboat were all that great tbh. Regardless of how often it's said they were. Levinsky is a man I need to study. Probably a great win actually, I just don't know him well.
You named 5 and only 2 don't have losses. One I'm not sure even a black man. Only one man you named was a clear contender. The others are muddied by the racism of the era.
Willard is possibly the weakest full champion of all time. Full as in not a titlist or pretense. Lineal or undisputed = full. I like every champion before him more for sure and then after him there are only the 30s guys I am unsure of. I think Primo takes him though. Not so sure about Sharkey, Braddock, or Bear. I don't know them as well as i do Willard or Primo.
Maybe I'm harsh on him, but, I've never once seen anyone go in for Willard being anything but one of several giant white dudes in a series that lasted a while, while JJ reigned. Someone had to be there at the right time. I don't think I've seen anyone list Willard as a great win. Then again I did say Jack's best not his great wins so that's plenty fair. Given everyone else is sad sacks Willard's got to be one of the better.
Yes Firpo did lose to Wills but before that he lost to Dave Mills for the SA HW title.
Carpentier - Dixie Kid and Jeanette both took him out prior to Dempsey, not after. That's at least Siki, Dixie, and Joe who took him out.
Miske got beaten by Norfolk twice and each time Dempsey fought Miske afterward. Flynn called Dempsey a duck when Norfolk was trying to get the Dempsey fight.
I'll give you Gibbons free and clear. To be honest no one ever acts like he's a good HW from the era but clearly he was. I don't think I had ever looked at him prior. Good HW, fought blacks and foreigners too, and, won.
Brennan I'm not so sure about. He didn't seem to fight black men himself and so it's difficult to just give him a pass. He's lost to men who lost to colored champions and has no wins over anyone with wins over colored champions. Dude's really an Irish domestic level fighter who got the Dempsey lottery.
That covered, I did say his best wins, not his best wins as champion.
Porky Dan - Norfolk, Jeanette, John Lester, and Langford
Pelkey - Norfolk, Jeanette, Battling Jim, and McVea. I think maybe Wills too but I don't remember and didn't pull him up. It's not that important given that's already four names.
Gunboat - Norfolk, Wills, and Tate
Fireman - Langford and Jack Johnson, to my knowledge...dude had a big career.
Probably should have said that about a lot of these guys actually. Not like Gunboat had a small one.Sharkey was a good win wasn't he? He only lost to Louis to my knowledge. Had wins over some good colored champ prior to the Jack fight and did not lose to one until after the Jack fight. I'd give Dempsey Sharkey.
So, in my opinion, his best wins in order:
Sharkey
Gibbons
Willard
Brennan
There are plenty of names that jump out at me but not knowing where they were at the time makes me more leary to speak to them.
It's not Wills I bother Jack's fans over. It's Norfolk. Clearly Norfolk was one of the best p4p and HWs of his era and never got a fair shake. I mean just look at how often I mention him and the chronology that goes with. Dempsey should have fought Norfolk for sure.
I don't think Miske, Firpo, Carpentier, Porky, Fireman, or Gunboat were all that great tbh. Regardless of how often it's said they were. Levinsky is a man I need to study. Probably a great win actually, I just don't know him well.
You named 5 and only 2 don't have losses. One I'm not sure even a black man. Only one man you named was a clear contender. The others are muddied by the racism of the era.
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