Welter Robinson vs Mayweather

[The Old LefHook]

How do you see this fight going? I think everyone can drum up a picture.

In my mind it is barely a contest. MW cannot begin to hurt Robinson who took much harder, but Robby can certainly KO MW if he lands big just a few times. Can he land the big ones, or will MW's shifty defensive moves prevail again? Ray has the advantage in virtually every department except perhaps pure defense and speed. MW might learn the hard way that Robinson KO's people while he is defending.

Too much punch on Ray's side. MW has nothing to keep him off.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Floyd is good enough to go the distance, but Ray would beat him...

[The Old LefHook]

Floyd is good enough to go the distance, but Ray would beat him...

I really do not think Floyd is going the distance, Sug. Quite a few great boxers did go the distance with Ray, though. Servo and Gavilan lost two decisions apiece. I don't know Servo's height but Gavilan was pretty rangey. Having the high ground is an important factor in all warfare. Robinson will have around four inches in height and a significantly greater reach.

As you mentioned elsewhere, Robby was not at his peak at middleweight, but at welterweight he is and MW is not. Past prime MW vs dead prime Robinson. MW would never take that fight.

If we pick a younger MW we also pick a lighter one. Either way, I think the boy is done for in this one.

[ironalex]

I really do not think Floyd is going the distance, Sug. Quite a few great boxers did go the distance with Ray, though. Servo and Gavilan lost two decisions apiece. I don't know Servo's height but Gavilan was pretty rangey. Having the high ground is an important factor in all warfare. Robinson will have around four inches in height and a significantly greater reach.

As you mentioned elsewhere, Robby was not at his peak at middleweight, but at welterweight he is and MW is not. Past prime MW vs dead prime Robinson. MW would never take that fight.

If we pick a younger MW we also pick a lighter one. Either way, I think the boy is done for in this one.

I totally agree. SRR would have stopped mayweather. People don't understand that although floyd is a great fighter, fighters back then were just a different breed. A younger mayweather would 100% get stopped as he was more offense minded anyway, the later one is much more negative

[billeau2]

Old martial arts Maxim: We fight the way we are trained. We are prepared for what we train for. He who hesitates meditates in the horizontal position....oh never mind that last one....

If this contest was held at fifteen rounds, it is significant. It isn't that mayweather is not superbly conditioned, its just that the law of averages and the collective wisdom of boxing people over a length of generations is such that a 15 round fight of 3 minute rounds was sort of perfect: For example, lets take the 1941 Conn Louis fight that happened in 1941 on June 18th (my bday!). in a 12 round fight Conn has a much higher chance of getting it done, I think Joseph corrected me on how long this fight in fact lasted...but 15 rounds will give the puncher enough chances, that is my point.

Mayweather's biggest problem is psychological. I actually think if Mayweather had lost to Castillo, meaning if the judges had given it to Castillo, Mayweather would have been a better fighter. Floyd learned to use the rounds to avoid the pressers because essentially in a twelve round fight that is considerably easy to do....as long as you don't fight a guy like Margarito who just would keep pressing no matter what. I mention Margarito not because he was a great fighter but because he is a legitimate presser. Would being on the losing end of a fight with Castillo have forced Floyd to develop his offensive weapons to a greater extent?

Psychologically this strategy (Floyd's mindset) works against fighters who are very good and cannot find a way to get their punches in against evasive fighters. But against a great boxer puncher who can press..... a fighter like Duran or the greatest (Sugar Ray Robinson) this strategy breaks down. Psychologically the difference is: An elite fighter, a guy like Toney might say: "I have to chase this guy down, press harder" and while this worked against Nunn it backfired horribly when he chased the evasive Roy Jones. A GREAT fighter would say "oh ducky...a guy who is more interested in avoiding me than punching at me, they won't be much offensively so I will become a presser and offensive machine." Because a great fighter is accomplished defensively as well as offensively. Toney was great enough to rely on his defense when he fought Nunn, because he was Nunn was tiring...But the limits of Toney became apparent when he fought Jones who exposed him defensively. This tells me that Toney when pressed, could punch with the best of them, counter with the best of them, but defensively was not with the best of them.

For a case example of this scenerio, where upon Sugar Ray fights Mayweather, I give you the first Duran Leonard fight. yes Leonard chose to fight but Duran made him fight because Duran had enough confidence that he could deal with leonard's evasive activities. Note: there are fighters like Pep and Sweet Pea, who are in a different category because they use their defense as an offense. Mayweather, despite his greatness really is not this type of fighter. In the May Pac fight there are a few exchanges where pacquio slips a Mayweather jab and catches him flush....this is an example of a pure counter punch, a defense generating an offense. I don't know how Pac did this but it was impressive to watch in slo mo.

Mayweather versus Robinson would be interesting in a 12 round fight....it would become apparent the difference in offensive weapons in a 15 round fight, especially during the championship rounds, if it went that far. With that said, Robinson was too smart to let Floyd win rounds with a few well placed punches. Robinson could turn it on and become a presser and make Mayweather fight at these times. Mayweather, with his incredible reflexes could counter Robinson perhaps, but Robinson (like Mayweather) adapts in the ring and unlike Mayweather is comfortable perpetually throwing combinations. this means that you avoid the first one or two and relax and wham!! the third and fourth are on target. Mayweather never fought a guy who could punch like that. Counter punchers that are good catch guys pure...meaning before the shot delivered by the opponent is withdrawn...Counterpunchers that are great know when to counter and when not to. Robinson mixed things up so this knowledge was always a risk for his opponent.

So yeah I thnk Robinson had the advantage.

[Suckmedry]

Floyd is good enough to go the distance, but Ray would beat him...

yeah pretty much. floyd could get stopped if he gets caught big time, but id say its a 65/35 chance he goes the distance and loses a wide decision. The guy is pretty damn crafty and god knows how defensive he could be if he was just fighting to survive.

[Tom Cruise]

Robinson UD.

Could see a stoppage, but wouldnt bet on it. Like BMAH says above if Floyd went full defensive he would be very difficult to catch. That said the type of shots which rocked Floyd vs Mosley could definitely be knock out punches vs a more powerful and better finisher in SRR.

I dont think that Welter is the weight that we should be looking at floyd vs other atgs though.

[SplitSecond]

I don't think Floyd makes it the distance. He gets stopped eventually every time they fight. In their primes ofcourse.

[Ray Corso]

Easy fight! Floyd has nothing to keep Sugar honest and thats what gets him stopped or Ko'd! I could see Mayweather Sr. stopping the fight as Floyd begins to take punishment.
Honestly Floyd Jr. doesn't stand up against the best ever welters, the men in Sugars era were far tougher than anyone today. The welters from Leonard & Hearns to Curry & Starling are all as good or better than Floyd.
There is nothing Floyd does better than Sugar, he is NOT faster with hands or feet and Sugars defense produces offense Floyd uses his D to survive.

Would not be competitive in any way.
Ray

[The Old LefHook]

Old martial arts Maxim: We fight the way we are trained. We are prepared for what we train for. He who hesitates meditates in the horizontal position....oh never mind that last one....

If this contest was held at fifteen rounds, it is significant. It isn't that mayweather is not superbly conditioned, its just that the law of averages and the collective wisdom of boxing people over a length of generations is such that a 15 round fight of 3 minute rounds was sort of perfect: For example, lets take the 1941 Conn Louis fight that happened in 1941 on June 18th (my bday!). in a 12 round fight Conn has a much higher chance of getting it done, I think Joseph corrected me on how long this fight in fact lasted...but 15 rounds will give the puncher enough chances, that is my point.

Mayweather's biggest problem is psychological. I actually think if Mayweather had lost to Castillo, meaning if the judges had given it to Castillo, Mayweather would have been a better fighter. Floyd learned to use the rounds to avoid the pressers because essentially in a twelve round fight that is considerably easy to do....as long as you don't fight a guy like Margarito who just would keep pressing no matter what. I mention Margarito not because he was a great fighter but because he is a legitimate presser. Would being on the losing end of a fight with Castillo have forced Floyd to develop his offensive weapons to a greater extent?

Psychologically this strategy (Floyd's mindset) works against fighters who are very good and cannot find a way to get their punches in against evasive fighters. But against a great boxer puncher who can press..... a fighter like Duran or the greatest (Sugar Ray Robinson) this strategy breaks down. Psychologically the difference is: An elite fighter, a guy like Toney might say: "I have to chase this guy down, press harder" and while this worked against Nunn it backfired horribly when he chased the evasive Roy Jones. A GREAT fighter would say "oh ducky...a guy who is more interested in avoiding me than punching at me, they won't be much offensively so I will become a presser and offensive machine." Because a great fighter is accomplished defensively as well as offensively. Toney was great enough to rely on his defense when he fought Nunn, because he was Nunn was tiring...But the limits of Toney became apparent when he fought Jones who exposed him defensively. This tells me that Toney when pressed, could punch with the best of them, counter with the best of them, but defensively was not with the best of them.

For a case example of this scenerio, where upon Sugar Ray fights Mayweather, I give you the first Duran Leonard fight. yes Leonard chose to fight but Duran made him fight because Duran had enough confidence that he could deal with leonard's evasive activities. Note: there are fighters like Pep and Sweet Pea, who are in a different category because they use their defense as an offense. Mayweather, despite his greatness really is not this type of fighter. In the May Pac fight there are a few exchanges where pacquio slips a Mayweather jab and catches him flush....this is an example of a pure counter punch, a defense generating an offense. I don't know how Pac did this but it was impressive to watch in slo mo.

Mayweather versus Robinson would be interesting in a 12 round fight....it would become apparent the difference in offensive weapons in a 15 round fight, especially during the championship rounds, if it went that far. With that said, Robinson was too smart to let Floyd win rounds with a few well placed punches. Robinson could turn it on and become a presser and make Mayweather fight at these times. Mayweather, with his incredible reflexes could counter Robinson perhaps, but Robinson (like Mayweather) adapts in the ring and unlike Mayweather is comfortable perpetually throwing combinations. this means that you avoid the first one or two and relax and wham!! the third and fourth are on target. Mayweather never fought a guy who could punch like that. Counter punchers that are good catch guys pure...meaning before the shot delivered by the opponent is withdrawn...Counterpunchers that are great know when to counter and when not to. Robinson mixed things up so this knowledge was always a risk for his opponent.

So yeah I thnk Robinson had the advantage.

Good analysis.