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  • #71
    Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post

    Why wouldn't you use a pressure tank? My thinking here is all the energy from a fall is just energy from a fall, and if you pressurize it than you're going to store more energy than without and it's going to cost more energy to store too, but, couldn't you then heat the pressure tank to get more energy out of the same amount of water? Obviously if your heat source is electrical too that janks the whole idea but if you just burn trees with magnifying glass or some such you've unlocked some wood energy to add to your water energy to get more energy back out of the energy put in.

    Because there's **** all no way you're getting 1:1 from a pump and fall but maybe you can get closer if you can give the waterfall a bit more umph without using electricity to do it.

    None of this is meant to be rhetorical. I'm legitimately asking if it's a good solution.
    You must have read the same report I did yesterday about compressing and the decompressing CO2. I would have thought that the heat energy lost during compression would have made the process very inefficient, apparently not.

    https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-...ce/2-1-1044755

    My thinking in my original post was that pumping water to the top of a hill using wind or solar is a simple low tech way of storing energy. That kind of energy storage is within the reach of a simple sort such as myself. Using the energy from water running downhill to turn an alternator/generator to supply electricity is something that could be done very easily.
    Last edited by 4truth; 08-03-2021, 10:56 AM.
    billeau2 and Marchegiano like this.

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    • #72
      Originally posted by 4truth View Post

      You must have read the same report I did yesterday about compressing and the decompressing CO2. I would have thought that the heat energy lost during compression would have made the process very inefficient, apparently not.

      https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-...ce/2-1-1044755

      My thinking in my original post was that pumping water to the top of a hill using wind or solar is a simple low tech way of storing energy. That kind of energy storage is within the reach of a simple sort such as myself. Using the energy from water running downhill to turn an alternator/generator to supply electricity is something that could be done very easily.
      I hadn't but I'm ****ing excited to now! Thanks bud!

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      • #73
        - -Rube Goldberg luvs this thread...
        Rube+Goldberg+Cartoon.jpg

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        • #74
          Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post

          Why wouldn't you use a pressure tank? My thinking here is all the energy from a fall is just energy from a fall, and if you pressurize it than you're going to store more energy than without and it's going to cost more energy to store too, but, couldn't you then heat the pressure tank to get more energy out of the same amount of water? Obviously if your heat source is electrical too that janks the whole idea but if you just burn trees with magnifying glass or some such you've unlocked some wood energy to add to your water energy to get more energy back out of the energy put in.

          Because there's **** all no way you're getting 1:1 from a pump and fall but maybe you can get closer if you can give the waterfall a bit more umph without using electricity to do it.

          None of this is meant to be rhetorical. I'm legitimately asking if it's a good solution.
          Your treading on the holy grail of energy conservation: Can we violate the inviolatable laws of thermodynamics? If we cannot beat the Law of conservation of energy, and the tendency towards Entropy, can we at least be so damn efficient, it looks like we did?

          The best way to answer this is to look at some of the things we may have to begin with: Do we have Ripparian water? a stream that moves? That gives one the ability to turbine. But it really gets better because you have things in some areas like Geotherm. Geothermal heat can do amazing things. It can create heat, or even make an air conditioning set up incredibly efficient. heat can, as you know, create movement and add to any pressure system.

          It always depends on what you have where you are... are you catching water from the sky? Like in Arizona and parts? with enough water pressure that water can turn something... The thing is when we have a system to take and store energy for future use, there is a lot we can do with many small things.

          Were even at a stage where one can use mechanical energy and create the equivalent of a combustable reaction, with no combustion. This is the newest technology beong sold. Anythiing that can strip electrons!

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          • #75
            Originally posted by 4truth View Post

            You must have read the same report I did yesterday about compressing and the decompressing CO2. I would have thought that the heat energy lost during compression would have made the process very inefficient, apparently not.

            https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-...ce/2-1-1044755

            My thinking in my original post was that pumping water to the top of a hill using wind or solar is a simple low tech way of storing energy. That kind of energy storage is within the reach of a simple sort such as myself. Using the energy from water running downhill to turn an alternator/generator to supply electricity is something that could be done very easily.
            You know... this system is in theoretical aspects, doing what an air conditioner does. Taking the heat out of the air, the gas expands, then is compressed, and takes more heat out rinse repeat... Its a very clever system.

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            • #76
              Originally posted by billeau2 View Post

              Your treading on the holy grail of energy conservation: Can we violate the inviolatable laws of thermodynamics? If we cannot beat the Law of conservation of energy, and the tendency towards Entropy, can we at least be so damn efficient, it looks like we did?

              The best way to answer this is to look at some of the things we may have to begin with: Do we have Ripparian water? a stream that moves? That gives one the ability to turbine. But it really gets better because you have things in some areas like Geotherm. Geothermal heat can do amazing things. It can create heat, or even make an air conditioning set up incredibly efficient. heat can, as you know, create movement and add to any pressure system.

              It always depends on what you have where you are... are you catching water from the sky? Like in Arizona and parts? with enough water pressure that water can turn something... The thing is when we have a system to take and store energy for future use, there is a lot we can do with many small things.

              Were even at a stage where one can use mechanical energy and create the equivalent of a combustable reaction, with no combustion. This is the newest technology beong sold. Anythiing that can strip electrons!
              No, we were discussing storage not generation; no natural flow to water in this hypo.

              I'm not trying to conserve energy from the input, I'm adding energy with added inputs, free...money wise...inputs. It does not violate the law of conservation anymore than a pot being boiled has violated any law of energy to provide more energy to the pot than it had on its own. Hot water has more energy than cool...don't need to get more energy out of water to get it hot and get more energy from water than you put in.

              I have another addition to the idea so I'm going to start it over at the top.

              When some an alternative energy generator has excess energy that can be stored but not used immediately, a solar farm or wind turbine exceeding the load for the settlement, that energy can be used to pump water into a vessel then recouped from the vessel at a later date.

              I actually found examples going off the link. Apparently they already do this in power companies. They pump water into a higher pond then when they need that energy back they let the water flow through their dam and turbines to get the energy back....well...some of it anyway.

              Now, let's say that vessel is a sealed container. Any sealed container with water in it will gain pressure as it is heated. Let's say you use the sun to heat it so your heat energy is free. Reflective mirrors would do that trick nicely. Now you have stored water that can flow back over water turbines more quickly, providing more energy that a simple fall can.

              Now let's say put that post turbine water to work again and in the flow of the water, before it has reached ground level, right in the duct of the fall post turbine, you add to it a trompe pump. Because falling water drags air with it all you need is some breathing tubes at the apex of the fall that lead directly into the water. That will allow the water to "suck" if you will air into the water and with the force of gravity and falling water that air gets trapped. at ground level there is a deviation tank that would allow the water to flow perpendicular to the air's pull which does two things. Not only does it seperate water from air but also it pressurizes that air to an amount directly related to the size of flow. This sort of air pump was used in old mines before electricity was everywhere to power air tools.

              Wiki had a pic so I'll share that JIC my words don't explain well:
              https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sketch.svg.png

              The site didn't like the link so no embed....I think, tbh, it just doesn't react for me atm.

              I see no reason why one wouldn't blow this air directly into their wind turbine. Doesn't increase how much energy can be stored, but, like the heat I feel like it would provide a bit of extra input to the original


              So, again.

              Energy from wind blows turbine to create electricity. Electricity powers settlement while excess energy is dedicated to the storage and pressurization of water. The sun and mirror can be used to add energy to the storage tank that wasn't provided by the original input, wind. Release turns turbines who directly power the settlement, and the trompe pump added some more energy by further utilizing gravity as its input to provide a boast of wind to the original wind turbine....one would assume given you're using stored energy the natty wind itself has failed but a little bump from a pump might allow the entire system a little "free" energy.

              Does all that bullshiz make sense though?

              I think something like this would be more effective as a bunch of small systems linked together rather than one large one.
              billeau2 likes this.

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              • #77
                Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post

                No, we were discussing storage not generation; no natural flow to water in this hypo.

                I'm not trying to conserve energy from the input, I'm adding energy with added inputs, free...money wise...inputs. It does not violate the law of conservation anymore than a pot being boiled has violated any law of energy to provide more energy to the pot than it had on its own. Hot water has more energy than cool...don't need to get more energy out of water to get it hot and get more energy from water than you put in.

                I have another addition to the idea so I'm going to start it over at the top.

                When some an alternative energy generator has excess energy that can be stored but not used immediately, a solar farm or wind turbine exceeding the load for the settlement, that energy can be used to pump water into a vessel then recouped from the vessel at a later date.

                I actually found examples going off the link. Apparently they already do this in power companies. They pump water into a higher pond then when they need that energy back they let the water flow through their dam and turbines to get the energy back....well...some of it anyway.

                Now, let's say that vessel is a sealed container. Any sealed container with water in it will gain pressure as it is heated. Let's say you use the sun to heat it so your heat energy is free. Reflective mirrors would do that trick nicely. Now you have stored water that can flow back over water turbines more quickly, providing more energy that a simple fall can.

                Now let's say put that post turbine water to work again and in the flow of the water, before it has reached ground level, right in the duct of the fall post turbine, you add to it a trompe pump. Because falling water drags air with it all you need is some breathing tubes at the apex of the fall that lead directly into the water. That will allow the water to "suck" if you will air into the water and with the force of gravity and falling water that air gets trapped. at ground level there is a deviation tank that would allow the water to flow perpendicular to the air's pull which does two things. Not only does it seperate water from air but also it pressurizes that air to an amount directly related to the size of flow. This sort of air pump was used in old mines before electricity was everywhere to power air tools.

                Wiki had a pic so I'll share that JIC my words don't explain well:
                https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sketch.svg.png

                The site didn't like the link so no embed....I think, tbh, it just doesn't react for me atm.

                I see no reason why one wouldn't blow this air directly into their wind turbine. Doesn't increase how much energy can be stored, but, like the heat I feel like it would provide a bit of extra input to the original


                So, again.

                Energy from wind blows turbine to create electricity. Electricity powers settlement while excess energy is dedicated to the storage and pressurization of water. The sun and mirror can be used to add energy to the storage tank that wasn't provided by the original input, wind. Release turns turbines who directly power the settlement, and the trompe pump added some more energy by further utilizing gravity as its input to provide a boast of wind to the original wind turbine....one would assume given you're using stored energy the natty wind itself has failed but a little bump from a pump might allow the entire system a little "free" energy.

                Does all that bullshiz make sense though?

                I think something like this would be more effective as a bunch of small systems linked together rather than one large one.
                Makes perfect sense. I should have read more carefully. Yes it's a similar argument in substance to the argument for solar energy: "it's there... (the sun) Why not use it?

                Water is a great medium to store heat and create pressure... this pressure is potential energy... is that the gist of it? I used to think what if you build a house four blocks using a very high grade plastic that you can fill with water. Let the sunlight heat the water. You don't need water tanks, you have pressure from the sunlight, water is a decent insulator... for winter, use indirect heat through solar panels.

                Obviously this is for hot climates
                Last edited by billeau2; 08-09-2021, 02:00 PM.

                Comment


                • #78
                  Originally posted by billeau2 View Post

                  Makes perfect sense. I should have read more carefully. Yes it's a similar argument in substance to the argument for solar energy: "it's there... (the sun) Why not use it?

                  Water is a great medium to store heat and create pressure... this pressure is potential energy... is that the gist of it? I used to think what if you build a house four blocks using a very high grade plastic that you can fill with water. Let the sunlight heat the water. You don't need water tanks, you have pressure from the sunlight, water is a decent insulator... for winter, use indirect heat through solar panels.

                  Obviously this is for hot climates
                  Yeah, pretty much. I see too much this or that when in my head it all works together. Wind, water, sunlight, geo....would be fun to build stuff just to see. Maybe, by-n-by, I'll work on a mini. Like a self powered dollhouse or some such stupid.



                  Oh, it'd work. My brother wouldn't go for it but I tried to get him to let me put a barrel on his tiny home. He didn't want to because he was selling them and didn't want to sell anyone on anything abnormal. Fair enough, but, it'd work so good here in Florida I don't think it'd be much of a sale so much as explanation.

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                  • #79
                    Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post

                    Yeah, pretty much. I see too much this or that when in my head it all works together. Wind, water, sunlight, geo....would be fun to build stuff just to see. Maybe, by-n-by, I'll work on a mini. Like a self powered dollhouse or some such stupid.



                    Oh, it'd work. My brother wouldn't go for it but I tried to get him to let me put a barrel on his tiny home. He didn't want to because he was selling them and didn't want to sell anyone on anything abnormal. Fair enough, but, it'd work so good here in Florida I don't think it'd be much of a sale so much as explanation.
                    You could do so much, I have a recycle guy in Reno that has all kinds of barrels, totes, etc lol. You let the sun heat the barrel and you have hot water... at its most basic level. The plastics we have know are so much stronger and resiliant. You could build great building blocks.... literally sell a house that a person can build like a lego set. Someone alreadymade a house totally out of a 3d printer made materials.

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                    • #80
                      I got MRE(meals ready eat) reverse osmosis Israeli made desalination portable
                      first aid kits.

                      awesome tent, tools— … pain killers, adderall, a .22 plastic rifle (explorer)

                      several compass-ez, a short wave radio, hand crank generator, and buddies that are prepared in case Zombies/Looters/Squatters/theives

                      i also have night vision military grade googles.

                      post 3/11 quake, I was in Sendai and I learned a lot.
                      billeau2 likes this.

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