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  • Anthony342
    replied
    Originally posted by Batko10 View Post
    99.9% of all matches since around 1920 are works. Primo's matches were all works as far as I know. You know that one of the reasons he dropped out of boxing was because he suffered from diabetes and had to have one of his kidneys removed in the early '40's. The worked matches in pro wrestling and the need to train less intensively than in boxing kept him in sports for a hell of a long time despite problems with his health.


    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "show wrestling." Gimmicks and pre-bout antics were around even in the early 20th century, albeit not nearly to the extent that they were prevalent from the late 1940's onward.

    If you're referring to static, chain, and sequencing that's a different topic. Wrestling in Europe and the States at the turn of the 20th century was strictly "static" where the grapplers would lock in a hold and grunt and groan for extended periods of time. Thus, the nickname for wrestlers became "grunt and groaners." At that time in India they developed a style called "chain" wrestling. They would lock a hold on for a minute or two and then switch to another hold. European and American wrestling switched over to the "chain" in the 1920's for the most part.

    The final link in the evolution of pro-wrestling was "sequencing" which appeared in the '40's. It employed the technique of the "chain," except it choreographed and told a story. Each series of holds and action were built on the previous series until the finale which would bring down the house if the sequencing was done properly. Nature Boy Buddy Rogers was a major innovator in this area and the adoption of the art of sequencing is mostly attributed to him. Even to this day after the demise of pro-wrestling and the rise of "sports entertainment" sequencing is still used.



    I became a rabid fan in 1958. I watched and studied the game intensively until around 1965 when my interest began to wane. By the end of the '60's I was not watching or following wrestling at all. When my young son got interested in it around 1998 I started following it again. We would watch the WWF/WWE and WCW shows on TV and went to a lot of live shows, including local Indy shows in gyms and armories. Around 2005 his interest waned and by 2007 both of us were no longer following it.

    Below are photos of some material that we collected when my son was into wrestling. I posted this rather than my huge collection from back in the day, because I figured this would be of more interest to you and today's fans.

    THIS WALL DISPLAYS THE SOUVENIRS COLLECTED DURING THE PERIOD WHEN MY SON WAS A FAN


    SOME OF THE ACTION FIGURES THAT HE COLLECTED
    Oh man, that Andre figure is so cool. and by show wrestling, I pretty much mean any match that's worked and not a shoot. I read that Toots Mondt is credited with inventing that. Too bad you missed the 80s Second Golden Age. You should check out some Bret Hart matches if you ever get a chance. Maybe some Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Hart Foundation, Steamboat and Youngblood, Harley Race and Midnight Express.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batko10
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
    Love the pics and programs collection man. You'd probably know the answers to these 2 questions most likely. Were Primos matches shoots or works? Or sometimes one or the other?
    99.9% of all matches since around 1920 are works. Primo's matches were all works as far as I know. You know that one of the reasons he dropped out of boxing was because he suffered from diabetes and had to have one of his kidneys removed in the early '40's. The worked matches in pro wrestling and the need to train less intensively than in boxing kept him in sports for a hell of a long time despite problems with his health.

    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
    And is it true that promoter Toots Mondt was the guy that came up with what he called "show wrestling" at the time?
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "show wrestling." Gimmicks and pre-bout antics were around even in the early 20th century, albeit not nearly to the extent that they were prevalent from the late 1940's onward.

    If you're referring to static, chain, and sequencing that's a different topic. Wrestling in Europe and the States at the turn of the 20th century was strictly "static" where the grapplers would lock in a hold and grunt and groan for extended periods of time. Thus, the nickname for wrestlers became "grunt and groaners." At that time in India they developed a style called "chain" wrestling. They would lock a hold on for a minute or two and then switch to another hold. European and American wrestling switched over to the "chain" in the 1920's for the most part.

    The final link in the evolution of pro-wrestling was "sequencing" which appeared in the '40's. It employed the technique of the "chain," except it choreographed and told a story. Each series of holds and action were built on the previous series until the finale which would bring down the house if the sequencing was done properly. Nature Boy Buddy Rogers was a major innovator in this area and the adoption of the art of sequencing is mostly attributed to him. Even to this day after the demise of pro-wrestling and the rise of "sports entertainment" sequencing is still used.

    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
    You ever see any of Rogers' later career as a manager or when he hosted Rogers' Corner until about 1983? I believe there was another guy named debord and then Piper's Pit after him on Championship Wrestling.
    I became a rabid fan in 1958. I watched and studied the game intensively until around 1965 when my interest began to wane. By the end of the '60's I was not watching or following wrestling at all. When my young son got interested in it around 1998 I started following it again. We would watch the WWF/WWE and WCW shows on TV and went to a lot of live shows, including local Indy shows in gyms and armories. Around 2005 his interest waned and by 2007 both of us were no longer following it.

    Below are photos of some material that we collected when my son was into wrestling. I posted this rather than my huge collection from back in the day, because I figured this would be of more interest to you and today's fans.

    THIS WALL DISPLAYS THE SOUVENIRS COLLECTED DURING THE PERIOD WHEN MY SON WAS A FAN


    SOME OF THE ACTION FIGURES THAT HE COLLECTED

    Leave a comment:


  • Anthony342
    replied
    Originally posted by Batko10 View Post
    Yes. Stanley Weston started with "Boxing Illustrated-Wrestling News" in the mid-'50's. In 1959 he published the first issue of "Wrestling Revue." Back in the day there were no computers, let alone internet. So, we got all our information from the Weston mags and the Thursday evening broadcast of "Capitol Wrestling From Washington, D.C." with iconic commentator/announcer Ray Morgan.


    This is one of the reasons that pro-wrestling became A "work" over 100 years ago. The promoters were seeing too many injuries and too many of their "cash cows" sidelined. These guys are extremely powerful and can hurt each other even when the matches are worked. Imagine how it was when they were actually going at it for real!


    After he quit boxing Primo became a huge draw in pro-wrestling. He wrestled from 1946 to the early 1960's. When he broke into the game he won his first 119 matches!!! Carnera and Rogers battled numerous times for the NWA United States Championship and the NWA World Championship.

    Below from my collection:

    VINTAGE 14X22 CARDBOARD POSTER ADVERTISING A 1961 FRED KOHLER CHICAGO SHOW HEADLINED BY ROGERS & CARNERA


    VINTAGE PROGRAM FROM THE SAME SHOW
    Love the pics and programs collection man. You'd probably know the answers to these 2 questions most likely. Were Primos matches shoots or works? Or sometimes one or the other? And is it true that promoter Toots Mondt was the guy that came up with what he called "show wrestling" at the time? Ironically, I've heard athletes involved in worked matches have gotten worse injuries than ones in real ones. It's because of the stunt work. Just this week a woman landed on her head during AEW Dynamite in a Deona Purazzo match. Not even sure what the hell move Deona was going for, but I know her opponent was not supposed to land like that. They temporarily stopped to have a ringside physician check on the opponent, then did the finish right after. A couple other guys ended up with serious neck injuries after landing awkwardly or being hit with moves in the neck. One was a guy that took the Rocker Dropper and sued Vince McMahon for the injuries and another was a guy named Droz who was paraplegic after a botch during a match with Dee Lo Brown. There was thankfully no hard feelings between the two of them, so I imagine Dee Lo did the right thing and checked up on him sometime after the incident.

    You ever see any of Rogers' later career as a manager or when he hosted Rogers' Corner until about 1983? I believe there was another guy named debord and then Piper's Pit after him on Championship Wrestling.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batko10
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
    So they were Weson mags before they were Apter Mags?
    Yes. Stanley Weston started with "Boxing Illustrated-Wrestling News" in the mid-'50's. In 1959 he published the first issue of "Wrestling Revue." Back in the day there were no computers, let alone internet. So, we got all our information from the Weston mags and the Thursday evening broadcast of "Capitol Wrestling From Washington, D.C." with iconic commentator/announcer Ray Morgan.

    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
    And any hold will break a limb or render someone unconscious without someone tapping out. That's why the opponent taps out within seconds.
    This is one of the reasons that pro-wrestling became A "work" over 100 years ago. The promoters were seeing too many injuries and too many of their "cash cows" sidelined. These guys are extremely powerful and can hurt each other even when the matches are worked. Imagine how it was when they were actually going at it for real!

    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
    Oh and that reminds me. I remember reading that Primo Carnera also later got into wrestling in addition to or after his boxing career.
    After he quit boxing Primo became a huge draw in pro-wrestling. He wrestled from 1946 to the early 1960's. When he broke into the game he won his first 119 matches!!! Carnera and Rogers battled numerous times for the NWA United States Championship and the NWA World Championship.

    Below from my collection:

    VINTAGE 14X22 CARDBOARD POSTER ADVERTISING A 1961 FRED KOHLER CHICAGO SHOW HEADLINED BY ROGERS & CARNERA


    VINTAGE PROGRAM FROM THE SAME SHOW
    Last edited by Batko10; 02-21-2024, 09:48 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anthony342
    replied
    Originally posted by Batko10 View Post

    Apter and I are from the same generation and both from New York City, i.e. Capitol Wrestling Corporation country. He was born and raised in Maspeth, Queens. I'm from East New York, Brooklyn. Both of us were big Buddy Rogers fans and used to make money betting on the Figure Four. Apter wasn't as greedy winning 25 cents a shot. I wouldn't latch on the hold for less than a 50 cent bet that the sucker couldn't break it. BTW, Buddy's Figure Four Grapevine is absolutely unbreakable. In fact, you can permanently cripple someone if they don't submit right away. I was at MSG when Cowboy Bob Ellis first tried to break the hold and they both rolled out of the ring (May 25, 1962). If you know how devastating the hold is it's obvious that these Figure Four challenges were just kayfabe works.

    Be that as it may, below are some photos from my collection of the mags that kept up informed back in the day. These are Stanley Weston mags from the late '50's and early ;'60's.







    So they were Weson mags before they were Apter Mags? Nice. My mom was from Flushing, Queens. And any hold will break a limb or render someone unconscious without someone tapping out. That's why the opponent taps out within seconds. I've heard the Gracies often didn't care. Royce was in an armbar against Matt Hughes but since Gracie didn't tap, Hughes had to release the hold and ended up winning by TKO instead. He was choked out too by Wallid Ismail also because he didn't tap. Renzo lost by TKO after not tapping to Sakuraba when in a kimura. And their father Helio lost by TKO to Kimura himself after his elbow was dislocated from it being twisted until the ref stopped the fight. Believe it or not, there are even wrestlers today committed to maintaining kayfabe. Their names are Abadon and Danhausen, who are rarely seen in public without their face paint and stay in character and MJF, who stayed the cocky heel in interviews and public fan events, even after his face turn, he's somewhat cocky. By the mid 90s, Brian Pillman also publicly did the same thing when he became his Loose Cannon character. After joining ECW, he debuted to huge cheers, then cut an epic promo to get the crowd to turn on him. Buddy Rogers would've been proud. Oh and that reminds me. I remember reading that Primo Carnera also later got into wrestling in addition to or after his boxing career.
    Batko10 Batko10 likes this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batko10
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
    ...And DUDE, I also wanted to say thanks for posting that magazine cover. I used to love reading the "Apter Mags" as they became known over the decades. As a kid, it was all I had to go by before I knew about the dirt sheets and before the internet and youtube was a thing. The fun thing was the keeping of kayfabe as well by the writers and editors too. Kinda wish Apter was still writing and editing at least one of those. The Wrestler was great too. Looks like he's writing for and editing Sportskeeda.com now though. A real class act. I think he used to give out awards on AWA broadcasts. I liked on Rodgers' Corner one time when he gave Andre the Giant a whole bunch of trophies and awards. Looks like it was from about 1983. So was in the midst of Andre's undefeated streak in the US. ...
    Apter and I are from the same generation and both from New York City, i.e. Capitol Wrestling Corporation country. He was born and raised in Maspeth, Queens. I'm from East New York, Brooklyn. Both of us were big Buddy Rogers fans and used to make money betting on the Figure Four. Apter wasn't as greedy winning 25 cents a shot. I wouldn't latch on the hold for less than a 50 cent bet that the sucker couldn't break it. BTW, Buddy's Figure Four Grapevine is absolutely unbreakable. In fact, you can permanently cripple someone if they don't submit right away. I was at MSG when Cowboy Bob Ellis first tried to break the hold and they both rolled out of the ring (May 25, 1962). If you know how devastating the hold is it's obvious that these Figure Four challenges were just kayfabe works.

    Be that as it may, below are some photos from my collection of the mags that kept up informed back in the day. These are Stanley Weston mags from the late '50's and early ;'60's.







    Leave a comment:


  • Anthony342
    replied
    Originally posted by Batko10 View Post

    I never questioned Flair's wrestling ability or overall talent. I just find it irritating the way he disgraced the "Nature Boy" legacy with his clownish behavior. Buddy gave his blessing to Flair and, apparently, wasn't bothered by any of this. However, that's the way pro-wrestling is. The original Zebra Kid persona was created by Jack Pfefer for George Bollas back around 1948 when Bollas was working for Jack's troupe. Since that time there have been more than 20 Zebra Kids. LOL

    Regarding Vince McMahon, he is NOT a buffoon. He is the "Destroyer of Wrestling." Fans from my generation consider him a scumbag who stabbed his dad's cronies in the back after the old man passed from cancer in 1981. By 1989 it was all over for kayfabe and pro-wrestling when Vinny, Jr. announced that wrestling was a work in order avoid taxes in New Jersey. The man is a piece of s hit. His dad was old school and closed a deal with the shake of your hand. This p rick would pull the gold teeth out of your corpse's mouth if he could get away with it!!!
    ​​



    I see what you mean now. And I would say Vince McMahon Jr. is a combination of both. If you've ever seen his TV appearances as his Mr. McMahon character, he was definitely buffoonish as well. Also a destroyer of lives, with all the sexual assault allegations against female employees coming out about Vince in recent years and all the millions in hush money paid to them. Then when more scandals came out, it was finally time for the new WWE owners to get rid of him. So much for just waiting for him to die.

    And DUDE, I also wanted to say thanks for posting that magazine cover. I used to love reading the "Apter Mags" as they became known over the decades. As a kid, it was all I had to go by before I knew about the dirt sheets and before the internet and youtube was a thing. The fun thing was the keeping of kayfabe as well by the writers and editors too. Kinda wish Apter was still writing and editing at least one of those. The Wrestler was great too. Looks like he's writing for and editing Sportskeeda.com now though. A real class act. I think he used to give out awards on AWA broadcasts. I liked on Rodgers' Corner one time when he gave Andre the Giant a whole bunch of trophies and awards. Looks like it was from about 1983. So was in the midst of Andre's undefeated streak in the US.

    Even though he would be pinned by Adnan Al Kaissie and El Canek earlier in his career, they must have been at untelevised house shows because no known footage seems to exist of those matches. So not only was that retconned, but his first televised loss as well, since it was in Japan, so that wasn't counted either, a submission loss to Antonio Inoki in Inoki's New Japan promotion from an armbar after hitting his enzuigiri kick twice in mid 1986 in the Tokyo Dome. Andre returned the favor after he finally got to pin Inoki clean in a tag match a few months earlier. Only other 2 clean losses would of course be Hogan-Wrestlemania 3 and Ultimate Warrior 1989-televised MSG house show-IC title match. Although WWF was somewhat accurate in the build up to Wrestlemania 3. In the US anyway, he WAS without a pinfall or submission loss for about 15 years by 1987. But Andre and Hogan had already fought before then though and been slammed as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batko10
    replied
    Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post

    Plenty of people believed wrestling was not a work in the 80s too. You ever watch any Ricky Steamboat or Bret Hart? They took the business plenty seriously. If you wanna talk heels, how about when Harley Race or Terry Funk were NWA World Heavyweight Champions? And yes, Flair could come of like a buffoon sometimes, but he could go in the ring. He's had classic matches with the likes of Dusty Rhodes, Sting and Ricky Steamboat. The Flair-Steamboat 89 trilogy alone are classics. And Flair took the business so seriously outside the ring that when he was feuding with someone, he made sure they stayed in separate hotels to maintain kayfabe. So I get it if you don't like the guy. A lot of people don't. But his talent can't be denied.

    I consider someone like Vince McMahon to be way more of a buffoon. Or his son-in-law Paul "Triple H" Levesque.
    I never questioned Flair's wrestling ability or overall talent. I just find it irritating the way he disgraced the "Nature Boy" legacy with his clownish behavior. Buddy gave his blessing to Flair and, apparently, wasn't bothered by any of this. However, that's the way pro-wrestling is. The original Zebra Kid persona was created by Jack Pfefer for George Bollas back around 1948 when Bollas was working for Jack's troupe. Since that time there have been more than 20 Zebra Kids. LOL

    Regarding Vince McMahon, he is NOT a buffoon. He is the "Destroyer of Wrestling." Fans from my generation consider him a scumbag who stabbed his dad's cronies in the back after the old man passed from cancer in 1981. By 1989 it was all over for kayfabe and pro-wrestling when Vinny, Jr. announced that wrestling was a work in order avoid taxes in New Jersey. The man is a piece of s hit. His dad was old school and closed a deal with the shake of your hand. This p rick would pull the gold teeth out of your corpse's mouth if he could get away with it!!!
    ​​



    Leave a comment:


  • Anthony342
    replied
    Originally posted by Batko10 View Post

    As a lifelong fan of the original "Nature Boy" since childhood in the 1950's, it kind of irks me that Flair capitalized on Rogers' persona. On the other hand, Buddy and Ric were friends and I understand that Rogers gave him the nod to adopt the "Nature Boy" persona.

    Unfortunately, Flair was a buffoon and disgraced the "Nature Boy" legacy. When Rogers gave interviews and spoke to the press he came across as a serious professional athlete like any other famous sports figure in baseball, football, or basketball. Yes, he had incidents like brawls during intermission interviews. However, back in the day we believed wrestling was NOT a work and he played into that giving the game an air of legitimacy. Flair devolved into a total freakin' clown. It's a shame.


    BUDDY ROGERS SOUNDS LIKE A REAL ATHELETE


    RIC FLAIR CLOWN SHOW
    Plenty of people believed wrestling was not a work in the 80s too. You ever watch any Ricky Steamboat or Bret Hart? They took the business plenty seriously. If you wanna talk heels, how about when Harley Race or Terry Funk were NWA World Heavyweight Champions? And yes, Flair could come of like a buffoon sometimes, but he could go in the ring. He's had classic matches with the likes of Dusty Rhodes, Sting and Ricky Steamboat. The Flair-Steamboat 89 trilogy alone are classics. And Flair took the business so seriously outside the ring that when he was feuding with someone, he made sure they stayed in separate hotels to maintain kayfabe. So I get it if you don't like the guy. A lot of people don't. But his talent can't be denied.

    I consider someone like Vince McMahon to be way more of a buffoon. Or his son-in-law Paul "Triple H" Levesque.
    Last edited by Anthony342; 02-21-2024, 09:24 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batko10
    replied
    Originally posted by $Bullsfam$ View Post
    damn how does walk in and wipe out that mans entire legacy stealing his name lol
    As a lifelong fan of the original "Nature Boy" since childhood in the 1950's, it kind of irks me that Flair capitalized on Rogers' persona. On the other hand, Buddy and Ric were friends and I understand that Rogers gave him the nod to adopt the "Nature Boy" persona.

    Unfortunately, Flair was a buffoon and disgraced the "Nature Boy" legacy. When Rogers gave interviews and spoke to the press he came across as a serious professional athlete like any other famous sports figure in baseball, football, or basketball. Yes, he had incidents like brawls during intermission interviews. However, back in the day we believed wrestling was NOT a work and he played into that giving the game an air of legitimacy. Flair devolved into a total freakin' clown. It's a shame.


    BUDDY ROGERS SOUNDS LIKE A REAL ATHELETE


    RIC FLAIR CLOWN SHOW

    Leave a comment:

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