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  • Originally posted by Left Hook Tua View Post

    This war has nothing to do with race or ethnicity

    This is politics

    ukrainians voted to closer to the west/eu

    Russians threatened their leaders and those leaders backed out on their promises on ties with the west/eu

    Ukrainians revolted and kicked them out and elected new leaders that were pro eu

    Russia invaded Ukraine and donbass
    Massive oversimplification there man... Yanukovich was not elected on apro-EU ticket although much of Western Ukraine in particular was in favour of closer ties to Europe. Yanukovichs voter base was more cenered in the East. In fact he defeated the more Nationalistic though also more pro-EU Timochenko (although the EU had problems with her because like Yanukovich she wasnt agree to the econmic restructuring and privatisation demands made by the EU (and IMF). In fact these were broadly unpopular even amongst Ukrainains who favoured closer ties with Europe... and justifiably so I'd say, such conditionalties inevitably impose conditions which are favourable to predatory international business interests and investors and very often demand the stripping of public subsidies and services (such as the Ukraiain winter fuel subsidies or workers Unionisation rights or health and safety protections).

    Also there were legitimate reasons Yanukovich could have chosen to push for a better deal off the EU, not least that the Russian loan on offer wasn't tied to removing fuel subsidies for Ukrainian citizens and the privatisation of a multitude of state owned assets. Also whilst it's not clear what pressure Russia was putting on Yanukovich or what threats were made - although it's reasonable to assume that's exactly what happened - the same could be said for the pressure being put on him by the West (both the EU but more especially the US) and the pressure put on subsequent Ukrainian leaders... let's not pretend our guys are some kind of saints. After all when he didn't do as he was told we literally funded and openly supported what amounted to a regime change

    As to the coup / revolution - well it's one of them terroirist/freedom fighter things... what is fairly clear though was that at the time of Yanukovich's ousting large parts of the East - the areas that had voted him in - still were not particualrly favourable to closer alignement with Europe... and the 2014 elections also barely represented the more Russian leaning areas. obviously, due to the seperatist movement / conflict.

    This ain't a simple good guy / bad guy situation - or at least it wasn't until Russia sent the tanks in... just good old fashioned sphere of influence bullchit with both sides plying their influence and playing as dirty as necessary. Honestly if it weren't that Russia had crossed the unforgivable line of military aggression I would consider this whole sorry mess just another example of Western hegemonistic overeach.
    billeau2 likes this.

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    • Originally posted by Citizen Koba View Post

      Massive oversimplification there man... Yanukovich was not elected on apro-EU ticket although much of Western Ukraine in particular was in favour of closer ties to Europe. Yanukovichs voter base was more cenered in the East. In fact he defeated the more Nationalistic though also more pro-EU Timochenko (although the EU had problems with her because like Yanukovich she wasnt agree to the econmic restructuring and privatisation demands made by the EU (and IMF). In fact these were broadly unpopular even amongst Ukrainains who favoured closer ties with Europe... and justifiably so I'd say, such conditionalties inevitably impose conditions which are favourable to predatory international business interests and investors and very often demand the stripping of public subsidies and services (such as the Ukraiain winter fuel subsidies or workers Unionisation rights or health and safety protections).

      Also there were legitimate reasons Yanukovich could have chosen to push for a better deal off the EU, not least that the Russian loan on offer wasn't tied to removing fuel subsidies for Ukrainian citizens and the privatisation of a multitude of state owned assets. Also whilst it's not clear what pressure Russia was putting on Yanukovich or what threats were made - although it's reasonable to assume that's exactly what happened - the same could be said for the pressure being put on him by the West (both the EU but more especially the US) and the pressure put on subsequent Ukrainian leaders... let's not pretend our guys are some kind of saints. After all when he didn't do as he was told we literally funded and openly supported what amounted to a regime change

      As to the coup / revolution - well it's one of them terroirist/freedom fighter things... what is fairly clear though was that at the time of Yanukovich's ousting large parts of the East - the areas that had voted him in - still were not particualrly favourable to closer alignement with Europe... and the 2014 elections also barely represented the more Russian leaning areas. obviously, due to the seperatist movement / conflict.

      This ain't a simple good guy / bad guy situation - or at least it wasn't until Russia sent the tanks in... just good old fashioned sphere of influence bullchit with both sides plying their influence and playing as dirty as necessary. Honestly if it weren't that Russia had crossed the unforgivable line of military aggression I would consider this whole sorry mess just another example of Western hegemonistic overeach.
      Great post and ****ing depressing to read

      We’ve been demoted to ant status in a world run by aardvarks and magnifying glasses

      I fear we’re slowly becoming inanimate objects
      Last edited by Dakuwaqa; 06-20-2022, 01:36 PM.

      Comment


      • How on earth is this possible? The ruble crashed earlier this year after Western sanctions on Russia and Russian businessmen. Now, it's at a 7 year high? That does not make sense to me...


        Ruble Soars to 7-Year High Prompting Debate Over Targeting Rate (msn.com)

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        • Originally posted by BostonGuy View Post
          How on earth is this possible? The ruble crashed earlier this year after Western sanctions on Russia and Russian businessmen. Now, it's at a 7 year high? That does not make sense to me...


          Ruble Soars to 7-Year High Prompting Debate Over Targeting Rate (msn.com)
          If I decide to sell you a rare tonic that makes sure, you look and feel younger, produce an erection with the snap of your fingers, etc etc etc... And tell you "just pay through rubles." I sell this to enough people, the rubles will go up. Russia has one export here... and it is in demand. That raises the price of the currency attached to the export automatically.

          The war has created a temporary demand for somethng that must be purchased in a particular currency, hence the currency gains value.

          Why are governments so scared of crypto? Because on the actual internet, not the surface part we interact with, are all kinds of products thathave real value and can only be purchased through bitcoin. of course the government also wants to regulate those purchases... but the value of these goods and services is unknown.

          Another way to think of it conceptually: Gold is Gold and it is valuable so, using it as a currency automatically gives it intrinsic value. Right now the intrinsic value of the Ruble is oil resources.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BostonGuy View Post
            How on earth is this possible? The ruble crashed earlier this year after Western sanctions on Russia and Russian businessmen. Now, it's at a 7 year high? That does not make sense to me...


            Ruble Soars to 7-Year High Prompting Debate Over Targeting Rate (msn.com)
            Try go down in your bank or in the market and sell your rubles. I guarantee you’ll be disappointed.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Citizen Koba View Post

              Massive oversimplification there man... Yanukovich was not elected on apro-EU ticket although much of Western Ukraine in particular was in favour of closer ties to Europe. Yanukovichs voter base was more cenered in the East. In fact he defeated the more Nationalistic though also more pro-EU Timochenko (although the EU had problems with her because like Yanukovich she wasnt agree to the econmic restructuring and privatisation demands made by the EU (and IMF). In fact these were broadly unpopular even amongst Ukrainains who favoured closer ties with Europe... and justifiably so I'd say, such conditionalties inevitably impose conditions which are favourable to predatory international business interests and investors and very often demand the stripping of public subsidies and services (such as the Ukraiain winter fuel subsidies or workers Unionisation rights or health and safety protections).

              Also there were legitimate reasons Yanukovich could have chosen to push for a better deal off the EU, not least that the Russian loan on offer wasn't tied to removing fuel subsidies for Ukrainian citizens and the privatisation of a multitude of state owned assets. Also whilst it's not clear what pressure Russia was putting on Yanukovich or what threats were made - although it's reasonable to assume that's exactly what happened - the same could be said for the pressure being put on him by the West (both the EU but more especially the US) and the pressure put on subsequent Ukrainian leaders... let's not pretend our guys are some kind of saints. After all when he didn't do as he was told we literally funded and openly supported what amounted to a regime change

              As to the coup / revolution - well it's one of them terroirist/freedom fighter things... what is fairly clear though was that at the time of Yanukovich's ousting large parts of the East - the areas that had voted him in - still were not particualrly favourable to closer alignement with Europe... and the 2014 elections also barely represented the more Russian leaning areas. obviously, due to the seperatist movement / conflict.

              This ain't a simple good guy / bad guy situation - or at least it wasn't until Russia sent the tanks in... just good old fashioned sphere of influence bullchit with both sides plying their influence and playing as dirty as necessary. Honestly if it weren't that Russia had crossed the unforgivable line of military aggression I would consider this whole sorry mess just another example of Western hegemonistic overeach.
              Subsequently (after the Russian illegal annexation of crimea) the Ukrainians with overwhelming majority voted pro west. I reckon it would be even more now.

              Comment


              • Ukraine shelled Donbas region for 8 years killing many civilians, because of pro-Russian sepratists didn't want to be part of an anti-Russian government backed by US and NATO they wanted to break away and formed their own republic.


                Most of the people in that region identify as Russian, speak Russian. If we're to believe Kiev, then we're to believe Russia is shelling and killing people who are pro-Russian and side with Russia. Makes no sense does it?


                What Kiev's government are doing are posting images of those killed by their own shelling, and claim its a Russian war crime. Then the Western media, repeats their claim as if it were a fact.



                [Content is Protected, Please Register For Free To Unlock This Content]


                Sadly people wont listen to any common sense and reason..

                Btw look up all the videos of Russians treating injured Ukranian soldiers.. all I've seen of Russian pow's is them being tortured.
                Last edited by Papa Smurf; 06-20-2022, 04:44 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Papa Smurf View Post
                  Ukraine shelled Donbas region for 8 years killing many civilians, because of pro-Russian sepratists didn't want to be part of an anti-Russian government backed by US and NATO they wanted to break away and formed their own republic.


                  Most of the people in that region identify as Russian, speak Russian. If we're to believe Kiev, then we're to believe Russia is shelling and killing people who are pro-Russian and side with Russia. Makes no sense does it?


                  What Kiev's government are doing are posting images of those killed by their own shelling, and claim its a Russian war crime. Then the Western media, repeats their claim as if it were a fact.



                  [Content is Protected, Please Register For Free To Unlock This Content]


                  Sadly people wont listen to any common sense and reason..

                  Btw look up all the videos of Russians treating injured Ukranian soldiers.. all I've seen of Russian pow's is them being tortured.
                  Russia shelled some of the most "russian" areas of Ukraine during this invasion

                  Most of the destroyed cities from russian bombardment were the "russian" east and southeast areas of ukraine

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BostonGuy View Post
                    How on earth is this possible? The ruble crashed earlier this year after Western sanctions on Russia and Russian businessmen. Now, it's at a 7 year high? That does not make sense to me...


                    Ruble Soars to 7-Year High Prompting Debate Over Targeting Rate (msn.com)
                    Russia used very strict controls to make this happen. Right after Russia invaded Ukraine, the ruble was in free fall. The Russian government then immediately took extreme measures to help stop the bleeding. First it pretty much banned people and companies from converting Rubles into Dollars and or Euros, and then required same export companies to convert 80% of their foreign currency (dollars and euros) into rubles in order to do business. In addition they also hiked interest rates to 20%, and used a large chunk of their dollar reserves to purchase rubles.

                    Its a short term solution to a long term problem, Russia is currently at 18% inflation rate for the year.
                    Last edited by JimRaynor; 06-20-2022, 11:50 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BattlingNelson View Post

                      Subsequently (after the Russian illegal annexation of crimea) the Ukrainians with overwhelming majority voted pro west. I reckon it would be even more now.
                      Well no doubt, you would wouldn't you? Nothing like an external aggressor to bring people together. On top of which of course the regions that were Russian orientated either were not included or largely didn't participate in the voting process which skewed outcomes further.

                      I was simply providing a more icomplete account of the series of events that precipitated the crisis, man, and it isn't anywhere near as clear cut as revisionist histories are currently portraying it although naturally that's to be expected in wartime.

                      Regardless that I don't buy the sanitized version of the saintly Ukraine with the noble west having no motive other than helping them breathe the sweet air of freedom I remain clear in my position of unreserved condemnation of Russian military aggression and continue to support the supply of weapons to help em defend themselves. I just seen and studied wartime propaganda and the dirty tricks used by the West to achieve their aims too much to buy into the narratives is all. I know what the Russians are but I'm also under no illusion what the US led Anglophone axis represents too.

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