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  • man down
    replied
    Oh and you can't sue OSHA either lol. So get fuked up and too bad! If it's this perfect vaccine why can't we open up lawsuits?

    Leave a comment:


  • man down
    replied
    Originally posted by Citizen Koba View Post

    I know you didn't read it, man, and I've no doubt you will be back. And sadly I'll have to waste more of my time explaining why they ain't what you think are for the benefit of those who might still be swayed one way or another.

    There used be some interest in finding this stuff out, digging up sources and stuff, but now when I'm explaining the same point for the 28th time... not so much.
    Naw bro your spouting BS and making this epic long posts and no one wants to read them. I get through the first paragraph and then see how long the post is and say fuk it time is on my side no point on arguing.

    And yeah I will be back when more is discovered. You also don't say something is FDA approved and then not be able to sue. FDA means it's clear. I'm going through this right now with JJ with my hardware in my back.

    But keep digging the hole. "Timmeee is on my side, yes it is!"

    Leave a comment:


  • Citizen Koba
    replied
    Originally posted by man down View Post

    Circles and denial. I'll give it more time and come back with more side effects.
    I know you didn't read it, man, and I've no doubt you will be back. And sadly I'll have to waste more of my time explaining why they ain't what you think are for the benefit of those who might still be swayed one way or another.

    There used be some interest in finding this stuff out, digging up sources and stuff, but now when I'm explaining the same point for the 28th time... not so much.

    Leave a comment:


  • man down
    replied
    Originally posted by Citizen Koba View Post

    Man, I given you plenty to go on and at this point I'm explaining the underlying principles for about the 10th time.. At the end of the day you're gonna continue to seek out anything that appears to make the vaccine not look like a good idea and that's cool, that's your choice. Nothing I can say is gonna change your mind and even if it did there's an entire segment of the media indstry that's solely dedicated for providing you with new reasons to be scared or sceptical.



    https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/my...avirus-vaccine


    Vaccine Effectivenes:

    https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor...delta-variant/

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...-delta-strain/

    Which does indeed show Israels hovering around 39% on average but also reflects a drop in efficacy starting at around 75%. UK results show closer to 88%

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ights/vaccines

    Pfizer 73% A/z 62%

    All the side effect reporting systems record all illness following vaccination but the simple fact is that people get ill anyway especially the elderly so not all reports given to VAERS or EudraVigilance or other national reporting systems reflect actual COVID side effects... this has been explained over and over.

    The reason you can't sue (unless it turns out the vaccine companies lied or withheld pertinent information which is an important caveat) is because the vaccine companies were given immunity, the vaccine companies were given immunity because otherwise they simply wouldn't have manufactured the vaccines in the first place. Why would they risk being sued out of existance when they could make $ billions just making therapeutic trewatments instead.

    As I've said many times making our healthcare systems dependent on the whims of profit oriented private industry seems to me to be the height of foolishness but that probably makes me a commie.

    We are taking natural immunity into account and studying it, at least we are here in the UK and to my mind vaccine mandates ain't ethical and most especially there's no justification for enforcing em on those who have already had COVID. Most countries ain't doing it that way so I guess yoiu gotta sk your Gocvernment that.

    And yes. The vaccine can still spread between and amongst the vaccinated it's just less likely to do so, once again pretty much all of infectious disease control is a probabilities game not one of absolutes. Epidemiology is astsistical science and is always looking at it from that perspective. Main think is that you keep the infection rate blow the crimical R = 1. Vaccination mat reduce it by say 0.5, social distancing by 0.3 masking by 0.2 or whatever and it's a matter of taking whatever cumulative measures are necessary to keep the disease from spreading exponential amongst the population depending on it's natural rate of infectivity. In any case however reducing the infectivity pof a disease by 'only' 30% or 50% is a **** of a lot better than not reducing it all, cos it's exponential.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

    And yes, the same happened in the UK, the numbers of fully vaxxed seemed alarmingly high until you factor in that the vaccine programs targeted primarily the oldest and sickest part of the population first and that they have had overwheolmingly the highest uptake. As aresult even though they are far less likely to die than another old or sick person that has not been vaccinated they are still more likely to die than a young healthy person who has not been vaccinated.

    https://scitechdaily.com/more-vaccin...ted-heres-why/


    And believe it or not, man. No. I actually harte this constant barage of misinformation and having to explain the same **** over and over, it's tiring and boring and no ****ing fun at all, however the misinformation you and those like you are spreading may cause real people to make decisions that could potentially make them very sick or - god forbid - even die. Unfortunately despite the fact that I really don't enjoy doing this crap I kinda see it as a social responsibility. I know. Call me daft if you like..
    Circles and denial. I'll give it more time and come back with more side effects.

    Leave a comment:


  • man down
    replied
    Originally posted by Citizen Koba View Post




    Did you actually read the link you posted? Yes, myocarditis is an occasionally found side effect in a very large number of medications including both Ibuprofen, Aspirin and vaccines. If you didn't take medications based on their listed possible side effects you literally wouldn't take anything ever. Do you ever read the information leaflets that come inside medicine boxes, even OTC medications? Most of em got a list of potential side effects about as long as my arm.

    In the case of Ibuprofen it accounts for about 0.06% of all reported side effects. In the case of aspirin it accounts for about 0.05%
    The fact that a drug has a very low chance of a particular side effect in no way precludes it's use as a treatment for that very condition in general, although it's worth noting that it's only suggested that Ibuprofen is used for relatively mild cases of myocarditis.

    Every single drug or medication we use ever has the risk of side effects man, the question you're asking yourself - as with everything else in life - is whether the perceived benefits outweigh the perceived risk.


    Here's aspirin:

    https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/aspirin/myocarditis/
    We were just told not to take asprin by the FDA. Wouldn't have to do with the Israel study would it? That 30% that tool aspirin had a better chance of not getting covid. Then boom, aspirin isn't good for you anymore.

    Leave a comment:


  • Citizen Koba
    replied
    Originally posted by man down View Post
    Take ibuprofen for myocarditis? It causes it.
    https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/ibuprofen/myocarditis/
    What is myocarditis?

    Quite simply, "Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle," says Erica Spatz, MD, MHS, a Yale Medicine cardiologist, "and there's a range of different symptoms and levels of severity of myocarditis. Most often the inflammation is mild, and we treat it with anti-inflammatory medications, such as ibuprofen or a prescription medication called colchicine," she says. "Myocarditis, in most cases, gets better on its own without medical intervention." In rare cases, it can cause arrhythmia or weakness of the heart.

    Did you actually read the link you posted? Yes, myocarditis is an occasionally found side effect in a very large number of medications including both Ibuprofen, Aspirin and vaccines. If you didn't take medications based on their listed possible side effects you literally wouldn't take anything ever. Do you ever read the information leaflets that come inside medicine boxes, even OTC medications? Most of em got a list of potential side effects about as long as my arm.

    In the case of Ibuprofen it accounts for about 0.06% of all reported side effects. In the case of aspirin it accounts for about 0.05%
    The fact that a drug has a very low chance of a particular side effect in no way precludes it's use as a treatment for that very condition in general, although it's worth noting that it's only suggested that Ibuprofen is used for relatively mild cases of myocarditis.

    Every single drug or medication we use ever has the risk of side effects man, the question you're asking yourself - as with everything else in life - is whether the perceived benefits outweigh the perceived risk.


    Here's aspirin:

    https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/aspirin/myocarditis/

    Leave a comment:


  • Citizen Koba
    replied
    Originally posted by man down View Post

    Where are you getting this information from? Israel said its 39% effective. They should know right? Knowing everything they've gone through with this vaccine. That's therapeutic right? It's drops down into the 20s and you need boosters every 5 to 6 months for how long? Or if you have JJ you need a booster after 2 months.That's not a vaccine. There's no vaccine that we need to go get boosters for years every 5 to 6 months. You call that a vaccine? Cmon guy you know better. The flu is once a year and isn't mandatory. Why? Partly because most of the time they get it wrong.

    The WHO is reporting a much larger number of side effects. Why are they being over looked? Why do we have the two week rule? If you die within the two week window after the Vax you didn't die from the Vax. You know as well as I do this is pure BS.

    Can you provide a link that says ibuprofen will take care of the heart issue? Because my doc is saying the heart doesn't repair itself it scars and its permanent damage even if you don't die from it

    If this Vax is so safe then why can't we sue? Why are we being told it's FDA approved and it's not? Why did the CDC overrule the FDA? Why did two heads of the vaccine approval process quit?

    Why aren't we taking natural immunity into account? Why are we testing for it? Why aren't we paying for people to test for it? We pay to see of you have covid right?


    See this,
    https://conservativeplaybook.com/202...munity-theory/

    Explain this.
    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...eaths-n2597628

    I know you love to type so a reply shouldn't be too tough lol.
    Man, I given you plenty to go on and at this point I'm explaining the underlying principles for about the 10th time.. At the end of the day you're gonna continue to seek out anything that appears to make the vaccine not look like a good idea and that's cool, that's your choice. Nothing I can say is gonna change your mind and even if it did there's an entire segment of the media indstry that's solely dedicated for providing you with new reasons to be scared or sceptical.



    https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/my...avirus-vaccine
    What is myocarditis?


    Quite simply, “Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle,” says Erica Spatz, MD, MHS, a Yale Medicine cardiologist, “and there's a range of different symptoms and levels of severity of myocarditis. Most often the inflammation is mild, and we treat it with anti-inflammatory medications, such as ibuprofen or a prescription medication called colchicine,” she says. “Myocarditis, in most cases, gets better on its own without medical intervention.” In rare cases, it can cause arrhythmia or weakness of the heart.
    Myocarditis can occur in both children and adults.
    Vaccine Effectivenes:

    https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor...delta-variant/

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...-delta-strain/

    Which does indeed show Israels hovering around 39% on average but also reflects a drop in efficacy starting at around 75%. UK results show closer to 88%

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ights/vaccines

    Pfizer 73% A/z 62%

    All the side effect reporting systems record all illness following vaccination but the simple fact is that people get ill anyway especially the elderly so not all reports given to VAERS or EudraVigilance or other national reporting systems reflect actual COVID side effects... this has been explained over and over.

    The reason you can't sue (unless it turns out the vaccine companies lied or withheld pertinent information which is an important caveat) is because the vaccine companies were given immunity, the vaccine companies were given immunity because otherwise they simply wouldn't have manufactured the vaccines in the first place. Why would they risk being sued out of existance when they could make $ billions just making therapeutic trewatments instead.

    As I've said many times making our healthcare systems dependent on the whims of profit oriented private industry seems to me to be the height of foolishness but that probably makes me a commie.

    We are taking natural immunity into account and studying it, at least we are here in the UK and to my mind vaccine mandates ain't ethical and most especially there's no justification for enforcing em on those who have already had COVID. Most countries ain't doing it that way so I guess yoiu gotta sk your Gocvernment that.

    And yes. The vaccine can still spread between and amongst the vaccinated it's just less likely to do so, once again pretty much all of infectious disease control is a probabilities game not one of absolutes. Epidemiology is astsistical science and is always looking at it from that perspective. Main think is that you keep the infection rate blow the crimical R = 1. Vaccination mat reduce it by say 0.5, social distancing by 0.3 masking by 0.2 or whatever and it's a matter of taking whatever cumulative measures are necessary to keep the disease from spreading exponential amongst the population depending on it's natural rate of infectivity. In any case however reducing the infectivity pof a disease by 'only' 30% or 50% is a **** of a lot better than not reducing it all, cos it's exponential.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

    And yes, the same happened in the UK, the numbers of fully vaxxed seemed alarmingly high until you factor in that the vaccine programs targeted primarily the oldest and sickest part of the population first and that they have had overwheolmingly the highest uptake. As aresult even though they are far less likely to die than another old or sick person that has not been vaccinated they are still more likely to die than a young healthy person who has not been vaccinated.

    https://scitechdaily.com/more-vaccin...ted-heres-why/


    And believe it or not, man. No. I actually harte this constant barage of misinformation and having to explain the same **** over and over, it's tiring and boring and no ****ing fun at all, however the misinformation you and those like you are spreading may cause real people to make decisions that could potentially make them very sick or - god forbid - even die. Unfortunately despite the fact that I really don't enjoy doing this crap I kinda see it as a social responsibility. I know. Call me daft if you like..

    Leave a comment:


  • man down
    replied
    Take ibuprofen for myocarditis? It causes it.
    https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/ibuprofen/myocarditis/

    Leave a comment:


  • man down
    replied
    Originally posted by Citizen Koba View Post

    Every source is very clear in that risk of myocarditis is very rare in any of the vaccines and in all of them far less of a risk that actually catyching COVID, but that yes the risk is non-zero and varies between vaccines. As yet the reasons for differences between the vaccines is unclear... there is no evidence that the cause is because moderna carries 'more mRNA' however, nor is there any particualr reason to make that assumption although nothing can yet be ruled out either..

    https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/my...avirus-vaccine

    Furthermore the majority of cases of myocarditis can be simply treated with a simple anti-inflammatory like ibuprofen.

    Gulliain-Barre is a risk associated with all vaccinations and hasn't shown to be significantly more so with COVID than with any others although indeed it is part of the equation you should include when making your decision as should the risk of myocarditis.

    With regards to EudraVigilance, just the same as with VAERs they cast a very wide net to ensure that they catch as much information about possible side effects as possible. What they do is record all reported instances of illness that occur following vaccination whether or not it's likely or even possible that they were caused by the vacciniantion. The screening process then analysises the data and investgates those instances where it seems possible or probable that the illness may have been caused by the vaccination. This is how things like the myocrditis and guillain barre were picked up of course. That simply shows the adverse reaction reporting systems were doing their job and should be a source of reassurance.

    And no it's not only therapeutic, although it does produce better outcomes than any therapeutic option we have, even against delta it's starting at about 60% effectivenes and so has prevented millions of infections globally and 100000s of thousands at least in the US although you are correct that as many scientists warned effectiveness does wane over time.

    And yes, boosters may or may not be useful or necessary for those who choose to take em... people who take the flu jabs do it every year and that is still vaccination... I'm not sure why you'd consuider this different? Any vaccine is in essence simply a mechanism for artificially inducing an immune response in order to prime your system against future infection. That is what the COVID vaccines do.

    In terms of an 'end game' we simply do not know yet. Most epidemiologists seem to consider that most likely COVID will become an endemic backgrpound illness much like seasonal flu that will claim maybe a few hundred thousand lives each year, vaccination will likely be offered to the most vulnerable but is unlikely to be mandated any longer once most of the population already have some resistance... which of course begs the question of why do we take any precautions at all if the end game is we all get it anyway, and the answer is to keepsd eaths as low as possible in the meantime and prevent healthcare becoming overwhelmed which we result in greater injury and death.

    In terms of testing, yes, it is ongoing but given the mass of data available after hundred of millions of vaccines have been given and perhaps the single most exhaustive and heavily scrutinised rollout in history (with far, far more rigorous tests done than were for the vaccine rollouts of the 50s and 60s which have all but eliminated many other diseases) it is now all but certain there are no immediate short or medium term threats that significantly change the cost / benefit balance of vaccination.

    At the end of the day if you were to say you're concerned about unknown future side effects there is ultimately nothing I could say to put your mind at ease, perhaps there will be although it terms of the theory behind the mRNA vaccines there's no immediately obvious reason to suspect this could be the case. So fair enough. What I can say is that based on all the available information across multiple agencies both national and international the risk of getting vaccinated are far lower than the potential risks associated with getting COVID, unless you're actually going to claim the staistics available from dozens of countries are simply made up for some nefarious reason there really isn't any question about that.

    But sure, like I can say, I sympathise... it surely wouldn't be the first time there has been complications or unexpected side effects to medications so such a fear ain't irrational... on the flip side however what about the the fact that catching COVID and getting it seriously itself might lead to unexpected future side effects and complications and that as the diseaese is monitored and we're seeing long term damage even in many who survive shouldn't this be part of anyone's consideration when weighing the decisn over whether to get vaccinated? The threat of unknown consequences doesn't just work one way, man.

    Where are you getting this information from? Israel said its 39% effective. They should know right? Knowing everything they've gone through with this vaccine. That's therapeutic right? It's drops down into the 20s and you need boosters every 5 to 6 months for how long? Or if you have JJ you need a booster after 2 months.That's not a vaccine. There's no vaccine that we need to go get boosters for years every 5 to 6 months. You call that a vaccine? Cmon guy you know better. The flu is once a year and isn't mandatory. Why? Partly because most of the time they get it wrong.

    The WHO is reporting a much larger number of side effects. Why are they being over looked? Why do we have the two week rule? If you die within the two week window after the Vax you didn't die from the Vax. You know as well as I do this is pure BS.

    Can you provide a link that says ibuprofen will take care of the heart issue? Because my doc is saying the heart doesn't repair itself it scars and its permanent damage even if you don't die from it

    If this Vax is so safe then why can't we sue? Why are we being told it's FDA approved and it's not? Why did the CDC overrule the FDA? Why did two heads of the vaccine approval process quit?

    Why aren't we taking natural immunity into account? Why are we testing for it? Why aren't we paying for people to test for it? We pay to see of you have covid right?


    See this,
    https://conservativeplaybook.com/202...munity-theory/

    Explain this.
    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...eaths-n2597628

    I know you love to type so a reply shouldn't be too tough lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • Citizen Koba
    replied
    Originally posted by man down View Post

    https://www.rt.com/news/537025-icela...vaccine-covid/

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...der/ar-AAPcgYf

    You're right they haven't stopped the Pfizer but did say this.
    "Like Iceland, all four countries nevertheless continue to push Pfizer’s COVID shot, despite well-demonstrated links to heart issues and other side effects associated with the experimental jab.'

    So they say all are a issue but they keep giving people Pfizer.
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ic...covid-vaccine/

    Found this as well. It's about side effects. Keep in mind we approved boosters even for JJ.
    https://www.ocalapost.com/fda-adds-n...fuse-vaccines/

    Let me ask you this. Why is Moderna being stopped? It's because it carries more mRNA correct? But if we give boosters of Pfizer this will give more mRNA and this booster will only last maybe 5 months? So then you need another booster and another right?
    So now we're past the amount of the Moderna mRNA with the Pfizer booster. The issue here is the Vax is therapeutic only. It doesn't protect as well against delta and it lasts 5 months. So you get a booster, that will also wear off right? What's the end game here? This isn't a vaccine by definition.
    https://www.archyde.com/covid-19-fra...-booster-dose/

    Why is this happening? Because it wasn't tested like other vaccines so we're learning of issues as we go. What will be the long term sides? UNKNOWN. But put this in your body knowing its not working like they said it would. Knowing you'll have to get another booster and another and another. All while not knowing the side effects.
    Every source is very clear in that risk of myocarditis is very rare in any of the vaccines and in all of them far less of a risk that actually catyching COVID, but that yes the risk is non-zero and varies between vaccines. As yet the reasons for differences between the vaccines is unclear... there is no evidence that the cause is because moderna carries 'more mRNA' however, nor is there any particualr reason to make that assumption although nothing can yet be ruled out either..

    https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/my...avirus-vaccine

    Furthermore the majority of cases of myocarditis can be simply treated with a simple anti-inflammatory like ibuprofen.

    Gulliain-Barre is a risk associated with all vaccinations and hasn't shown to be significantly more so with COVID than with any others although indeed it is part of the equation you should include when making your decision as should the risk of myocarditis.

    With regards to EudraVigilance, just the same as with VAERs they cast a very wide net to ensure that they catch as much information about possible side effects as possible. What they do is record all reported instances of illness that occur following vaccination whether or not it's likely or even possible that they were caused by the vacciniantion. The screening process then analysises the data and investgates those instances where it seems possible or probable that the illness may have been caused by the vaccination. This is how things like the myocrditis and guillain barre were picked up of course. That simply shows the adverse reaction reporting systems were doing their job and should be a source of reassurance.

    And no it's not only therapeutic, although it does produce better outcomes than any therapeutic option we have, even against delta it's starting at about 60% effectivenes and so has prevented millions of infections globally and 100000s of thousands at least in the US although you are correct that as many scientists warned effectiveness does wane over time.

    And yes, boosters may or may not be useful or necessary for those who choose to take em... people who take the flu jabs do it every year and that is still vaccination... I'm not sure why you'd consuider this different? Any vaccine is in essence simply a mechanism for artificially inducing an immune response in order to prime your system against future infection. That is what the COVID vaccines do.

    In terms of an 'end game' we simply do not know yet. Most epidemiologists seem to consider that most likely COVID will become an endemic backgrpound illness much like seasonal flu that will claim maybe a few hundred thousand lives each year, vaccination will likely be offered to the most vulnerable but is unlikely to be mandated any longer once most of the population already have some resistance... which of course begs the question of why do we take any precautions at all if the end game is we all get it anyway, and the answer is to keepsd eaths as low as possible in the meantime and prevent healthcare becoming overwhelmed which we result in greater injury and death.

    In terms of testing, yes, it is ongoing but given the mass of data available after hundred of millions of vaccines have been given and perhaps the single most exhaustive and heavily scrutinised rollout in history (with far, far more rigorous tests done than were for the vaccine rollouts of the 50s and 60s which have all but eliminated many other diseases) it is now all but certain there are no immediate short or medium term threats that significantly change the cost / benefit balance of vaccination.
    .........................................

    At the end of the day if you were to say you're concerned about unknown future side effects there is ultimately nothing I could say to put your mind at ease, perhaps there will be although it terms of the theory behind the mRNA vaccines there's no immediately obvious reason to suspect this could be the case. So fair enough. What I can say is that based on all the available information across multiple agencies both national and international the risk of getting vaccinated are far lower than the potential risks associated with getting COVID, unless you're actually going to claim the staistics available from dozens of countries are simply made up for some nefarious reason there really isn't any question about that.

    But sure, like I can say, I sympathise... it surely wouldn't be the first time there has been complications or unexpected side effects to medications so such a fear ain't irrational... on the flip side however what about the the fact that catching COVID and getting it seriously itself might lead to unexpected future side effects and complications? The threat of unknown consequences doesn't just work one way, man, and that should be part of our risk / reward considerations too.

    .................................................. .



    FWIW you'll be plased to hear Ms K is finally starting to recover and she drove again for the first time today in over two weeks although she's gone back to bed now. Whilst she's still very sceptical she has said that it's made her more aware that the risks ain't just about whether you die or not and that she's never been as ill in her life. She ain't exactly a convert but was starting to consider whether she should get vaccinated although I told her she should be cool for the time being since she already had it... what she did say was that she wouldn't warn anyone against vaccination any more even though she still don't trust that the whole pandemic was entirely natural.



    Leave a comment:

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