Larry Homes better than Ali? Should Holmes be GOAT?

[AlexKid]

Is Holmes the GOAT but because hes a miserable bstard that no one likes and he peed off every white person in history with his jock strap remark, and followed in the shadows of Ali's epic run, does he not get the credit as the GOAT?

I mean I see him out boxing Ali, and Lennox Lewis and im not too sure what would go down if he faced Joe Louis, but he seems to match up pretty favourably to all the other all time greats that often get considered GOAT.

Also by GOAT I mean the guy that can beat everyone else or at least more of everyone else than anyone else.

Could Larry have done what ali did and beat foreman, liston, and fraizier?

Would he have always lost to Tyson? and does that say alot about how good Tyson could have been considered had he not gone off the rails?

I think he beats more heavyweight champions than any other heavyweight champion in history, what do you think?

[GeneralZod]

I wouldn't put him as the greatest, but i think prime for prime Holmes can take Muhammad if he really put in 100%. I doubt either would be KO'd.

As for Tyson i can also see him getting a decision if he doesn't catch Mike at a bad angle. I really don't think Mike would keep his composure into later rounds with someone like Larry.

I think Holmes and Lennox would be the most interesting to watch, i'd go either way on that.

Louis i would put as giving him the most trouble, he could be the one to KO him.

[AlexKid]

I wouldn't put him as the greatest, but i think prime for prime Holmes can take Muhammad if he really put in 100%. I doubt either would be KO'd.



Louis i would put as giving him the most trouble, he could be the one to KO him.

Yea I cant decide if he would be too much in terms of size skill and power for Louis or actually Louis being the one that out guns and out boxes him. Really cant see how that would go.

I think Tyson would beat him prime for prime, it would be close but its a bad style match up for Larry, and we know Tyson can put him away with just 1 punch.

I agree with what you said about Ali.

I think Larry would be highly likely to beat Lewis, because his jab is so much better, it fast snappy and powerful, Lewis wouldnt know what to do if he was getting out jabbed because thats his number 1 tool that he heavily relies on too.

[joseph5620]

Hypothetical opinions shouldn't matter when rating fighter's historically. You should go by who they beat and what they did. Regardless of who you think would have won it can never be proven. The quality of opposition can and Ali beat and fought superior opponent's to Holmes and it's not debatable.

[Scott9945]

Hypothetical opinions shouldn't matter when rating fighter's historically. You should go by who they beat and what they did. Regardless of who you think would have won it can never be proven. The quality of opposition can and Ali beat and fought superior opponent's to Holmes and it's not debatable.

No it isn't. And Holmes' resume has too many gaps for someone who was a champion for so long.

[StarshipTrooper]

Is Holmes the GOAT but because hes a miserable bstard that no one likes and he peed off every white person in history with his jock strap remark, and followed in the shadows of Ali's epic run, does he not get the credit as the GOAT?

I mean I see him out boxing Ali, and Lennox Lewis and im not too sure what would go down if he faced Joe Louis, but he seems to match up pretty favourably to all the other all time greats that often get considered GOAT.

Also by GOAT I mean the guy that can beat everyone else or at least more of everyone else than anyone else.

Could Larry have done what ali did and beat foreman, liston, and fraizier?

Would he have always lost to Tyson? and does that say alot about how good Tyson could have been considered had he not gone off the rails?

I think he beats more heavyweight champions than any other heavyweight champion in history, what do you think?

Top-5 Heavyweight but not greater than Ali.

[K-DOGG]

Is Holmes the GOAT but because hes a miserable bstard that no one likes and he peed off every white person in history with his jock strap remark, and followed in the shadows of Ali's epic run, does he not get the credit as the GOAT?

I mean I see him out boxing Ali, and Lennox Lewis and im not too sure what would go down if he faced Joe Louis, but he seems to match up pretty favourably to all the other all time greats that often get considered GOAT.

Also by GOAT I mean the guy that can beat everyone else or at least more of everyone else than anyone else.

Could Larry have done what ali did and beat foreman, liston, and fraizier?

Would he have always lost to Tyson? and does that say alot about how good Tyson could have been considered had he not gone off the rails?

I think he beats more heavyweight champions than any other heavyweight champion in history, what do you think?

A very astute question; but I have to disagree with the proposed synopsis.

Larry had a better jab than Ali, better body work than Ali; but that's where his edge ends, IMO. Head to head, I'd give a prime Ali the edge over a prime Holmes based predominantly on Ali's speed and ability to improvise. Larry wouldn't be able to hurt him, whereas Ali would be able to get Larry in trouble. At his best, Ali's right hand was a fast and deadly weapon; Holmes was susceptible to a right hand counter throughout his career: Shavers, Snipes, and Tyson come to mind.

Even though Tyson fought an old Larry Holmes, DaMatto had trained him to meet and beat Holmes throughout his tutelage. That right would have landed if Holmes had been 28 or 38, it makes no difference. At some point in the fight, Larry would always drop his left after the jab.....and there's your barn door, hanging wide open.

Would Ali have kayoed Holmes? Well, that's hard to call cause Ali, while a good finisher was never a great one and Holmes had as much heart as any heavyweight whoever donned gloves. So, it's possible; but not likely. What is likely is that Holmes would have trouble in the role of stalker, which he always did and Ali would have no trouble darting in and out, flashing combinations whenever the opportunity presented itself. Would Holmes counter effectively? Sometimes sure, he was a smart and gifted fighter. I just don't think it would be frequent enough to turn the tide of the fight permanently. Ali wins a U.D., in my opinion.

Now, the other reason I don't and wouldn't rank Holmes above Ali is comparative competition. Most of Holmes opponents were green to the gills when he faced them. Look up the records of Snipes, Cooney, Williams, Berbick, Bey, Witherspoon, Jones, and Frazier (Marvis) when Holmes fought them and see how many quality fights they'd had when these Don King promoted fighters got a shot at a Don King champion. Yeah, say what you want; but the damn facts are the damn facts. The other fighters were vets such as Shavers, Spinks (Leon), and Ali (shot as hell). And one of his toughest fights was Mike Weaver, whom he underestimated immensely....and why not? The man had 8 losses.

Now, when you compare that to Liston (old, admittedly in retrospect; but nobody knew or thought about that at the time...hence the 8-1 underdog status of Clay), Frazier (3 times), Foreman, Lyle, Norton, and Shavers, Ali wins the props as far as tests are concerned. Were there easy fights? Sure, just as there were ones that were tougher than they should have been. Styles make fights; and if a champion underestimates a challenger the fight is generally harder than it should be.....especially when the challenger is really motivated to beat the man in front of him due to the clout such a win would bring.

Ali's competition was more seasoned and overall better than Larry's.

Now, how would Larry do against said opposition?

Of course, this is just my opinion; but here goes:

1. Foreman...Holmes, at his best, had the skills and the ability to beat Foreman; but I think he'd have to get off the canvas or walk out of the "dreamroom" early in the fight to do so. .....then, he'd stop him.

2. Liston....Holmes definitely had the speed and the heart to beat the same Liston Ali did. No doubt in my mind, anyway.

3. Frazier...Frazier would cause fits for Holmes and it would be one of those fights you could watch again and again. Helluva war.....which makes me give the edge to Frazier. Joe's tenacity, I think, would win him the day in the end. Joe by later round stoppage.

4. Tyson....for the reasons listed above, Mike would always have had an advantage over Holmes, IMO. The difference between Mike and Shavers, Snipes, Weaver, and Witherspoon is that Mike was a died in the wool finisher. If he got you hurt......it's over. All those guys had Holmes seeing stars, flashes of light, and a close up view of the canvas.....and they let him off the hook. Mike Tyson would not. If Holmes gets hurt, and he would....Mike wins by kayo.

There. That's my long-ass synopsis to an excellent question.

[spam]

You know who should be the greatest fighter of all time? Nobody because no boxer was perfect. No boxer could do everything and no boxer could handle every style. There is nothing perfect about anybody. Is Holmes better than Ali? They both are highly overrated. Who did Ali actually dominate in his career who you would consider great and still in their primes? Frazier hell no. Norton? Hell no I feel Norton should of got the win in all 3 fights. Foreman? You mean by Ali laying against the ropes hoping he got tired ( For the people who think Ali planned to lay on the ropes from the start. Ali has stated he wanted to move but Foreman forced him against the ropes. Ali also stated Foreman's physical strength was too much for him to handle and Foreman's power hurt him various times in their bout). How about Liston? Liston is highly overrated because he beat a 170 pound Patterson and club fighter Cleveland Williams. So where did his greatness come from? Ali saying he was great? Who did Holmes beat that you would consider world class and still in their primes.

[spam]

Holmes could beat Foreman how? Ali was quicker on his feet than Holmes and he was trapped against the ropes. So would Holmes. The main difference is Ali could take a body punch way better than Holmes could and was a lot better at pulling his head away at the last second. Holmes ducked Foreman in their primes for a reason. Not because he believe he could win.

[spam]

It was shortly after Foreman stopped Frazier in June of 1976 that Dick Saddler started accusing Ali of ducking Foreman and fighting wrestlers like Antonio Inoki. Saddler also said that he would like Foreman to fight the Ali wannabe, Larry Holmes, if they can't get the real thing. Saddler said Holmes, who at the time was 22-0 (16), would be a perfect opponent to help Foreman get ready for a rematch with Ali. However, Foreman-Holmes wasn't a draw at the time and there were a few obstacles pertaining to Holmes that quashed the fight.

The first was that Holmes’ trainer at the time, Richie Giachetti, wanted no part of matching his fighter with Foreman. In August 1976, Foreman stopped Scott LeDoux on CBS in a bout that was called by Jerry Quarry and Tom Brookshier. Quarry passed along to Brookshier that he spoke to Giachetti a couple days before Foreman fought LeDoux and asked him what he thought about shutting up Saddler and matching Holmes with Foreman. According to Brookshier, Quarry said Giachetti told him "There's no way I'm putting Larry in there with that Friggin’ Animal Foreman."


Yeah Holmes would of beat Foreman in their primes which is why Holmes people wanted no part of Foreman and Holmes never opened his mouth to say he wanted a piece of Foreman.

Foreman would of walked right through anything Holmes had to offer and stopped him. Holmes was no Ali even though he wanted to be.