A Deep look into Mayweather, Pacquiao, Canelo and GGG's Risk History

[Roadblock]

Manny would make 140 just fine. Stop it. 135... I agree. But your reaching with 140.

So what did you think about the hes too old excuse?

Make a weight and it not hurting you are two different things, Manny been at 147 for 10yrs or more, he was taking 140 yrs ago and never did.

And the second part is who is the opponent at 140 if its a top guy in top form Manny might feel making this weight.

When I talk making a weight I mean in peak, not where it hurts you in any way, Manny could make 135 but not against a Lomo type guy, Manny would be drained today at 135.

Yeh to say he is too old is BS, if I was handling Lomo I would jump on it at 135.

[Citizen Koba]

you could not... you dribbly fanboy

you could provide a pathetic list of silly excuses... SILLY EXCUSES THAT COULD - AND HAVE BEEN - SIMPLY IGNORED BY MANY OTHER FIGHTERS.. proving you wrong!

you are a Captain-Save-A-Hoe for life



FACT: they could have simply taken those fights, because MANY other fighters did... but, they CHOSE not to

You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the ass, man. Unless you're God all you ever do is spout your opinions like everyone else, like me even. You ain't God is ya?

A list of reasons Scrappy. Excuses ain't required until some form of wrongdoing has been established. In fact for a boxing fan to talk about 'excuses' tells me from the get go he ain't planning on listening to reason though, so I ain't expecting you to listen nor do I care much. Anyways you've already tacitly accepted the point that I had to make by coming on this thread so it's job done I reckon.

I'd say most grown ups understand that fights get made for real practical reasons - like money, like power... if you're living in some WWE fantasyland of heroes and shitheels I can't help you I'm afraid but when you feel like moving into the real world feel free to give me a shout.

Dudes can't be held accountable for fights not happening when there ain't the money in the coffers to pay for good opponents or when the good opponents can get better offers elsewhere? They can't be held accountable for promoters or networks going to war and refusing to work together and to my mind they should never be described as cowardly for choosing not to compromise themselves in the ring by fighting at anything other than their best weight.

And far as I'm concerned no fighter deserves criticism for trying to make the most lucrative fight available at any given time. Just a simple principle, you gonna criticise GGG for that you gotta criticise almost every fighter ever.

Anyways, we all want to see the best fights Scrappy, explaining why they didn't happen without callling world class pugilists 'cowards' and 'duckers' is not the same as not wanting them to happen. Ain't exactly a subtle distintion but it seems to be one you continually fail to grasp.

So...

Cotto was never going to fight Golovkin at any weight, not because he was 'scared' - all of these guys will fight anyone if the money's right - but because the WBC by their own admission had been lining up the winner Cotto - Martinez fight with the winner fighting Canelo since 2013 or so. Why in **** would Cotto fight GGG when he'd been promised Canelo? He even paid the man step aside and if he hadn'r I believe the WBC woulda just granted exception ... it was their damn plan after all. Besides Cotto showed exactly how much he cared about the WBC trinket.

Canelo was never fighting Golovkin before Cotto for the same reasons above. Why the fuck would he? He then immediately negotiated with Khan, fought him, and then announced from the ring he'd fight GGG at 160 - where there is there any room for saying Golovkin 'killed' that fight? His offer literally got accepted in after the next fight

Erislandy 'I can get a $ mil for fighting Delvin' Lara? Networks and money, man - and I won't lie probably HBO didn't want the risk either... Lara did have a chance of making GGG look less than invincible. Can I prove it couldn't have been made or say that GGG couldna got it if he'd pushed? No. I'll grant that. But that's down to HBO and as long as there's legitimate reason to believe there was a roadblock why you wanna blame the fighter? You gonna blame the fighters for every other fight that didn't happen because of a network war... Spence and Bud, Kovalev and Stevenson.. countless others. Sure I know Al let Wade go over, but then why wouldn't he?

Saunders... was actually offered his highest previous payday by a margin - £1.5 mil - apx $2.2 mil and twice what any previous GGG opponent had been offered outside of PPV. Calling an offer a lowball is a only works if you know what's in the budget... Do you have access to the HBO books for 2016 Q1? Nah... thought not.


So yeah. Money. It's always about the money, Scrappy. Grow up and talk like a damn adult, maybe learn to think like one too. I'm always here if you want to talk sense, but I think I'm pretty much done wasting time on ya otherwise.

[Boxing_1013]

Points noted, but Canelo was the A-side against Golovkin, yet came in as the underdog. To be honest, the whole thing about A-side vs B-side just came into light I'd say around 2008 or 2009. But even then, I'm pretty sure SRL was the A-side against Hearns and Hagler, yet he still came in as the underdog.

Yeah that is interesting...I guess a lot of bookies still felt GGG could KO Canelo/Hearns and Hagler could KO SRL...because if it goes to the cards you know the big-time star usually gets the benefit of the doubt.

[Boxing_1013]

1) this thread is not designed to " determine greatness "

2) your suggestion cannot " determine greatness "... simply because, it is not genuine criteria for greatness

I have told you this numerous times already, what is wrong with you

who did you beat, with consideration given to when/how

nothing else matters

oh, right... I forgot... you measure greatness based upon how a guy performs against good/average opponents... because greats always have close fights, right?

the question is, how good was the opponent you beat?... not, what is the difference between his level and yours, and who was favored in the fight

if we were discussing greatness, Golovkin would not have been mentioned... you muppet

this is a indicator, nothing more

You don't even score fights bro...fall back

[EDDIE SPERM]

From GOAT to WOAT hahaha

[aboutfkntime]

You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the ass, man. Unless you're God all you ever do is spout your opinions like everyone else, like me even. You ain't God is ya?

A list of reasons Scrappy. Excuses ain't required until some form of wrongdoing has been established. In fact for a boxing fan to talk about 'excuses' tells me from the get go he ain't planning on listening to reason though, so I ain't expecting you to listen nor do I care much. Anyways you've already tacitly accepted the point that I had to make by coming on this thread so it's job done I reckon.

I'd say most grown ups understand that fights get made for real practical reasons - like money, like power... if you're living in some WWE fantasyland of heroes and shitheels I can't help you I'm afraid but when you feel like moving into the real world feel free to give me a shout.

Dudes can't be held accountable for fights not happening when there ain't the money in the coffers to pay for good opponents or when the good opponents can get better offers elsewhere? They can't be held accountable for promoters or networks going to war and refusing to work together and to my mind they should never be described as cowardly for choosing not to compromise themselves in the ring by fighting at anything other than their best weight.

And far as I'm concerned no fighter deserves criticism for trying to make the most lucrative fight available at any given time. Just a simple principle, you gonna criticise GGG for that you gotta criticise almost every fighter ever.

Anyways, we all want to see the best fights Scrappy, explaining why they didn't happen without callling world class pugilists 'cowards' and 'duckers' is not the same as not wanting them to happen. Ain't exactly a subtle distintion but it seems to be one you continually fail to grasp.

So...

Cotto was never going to fight Golovkin at any weight, not because he was 'scared' - all of these guys will fight anyone if the money's right - but because the WBC by their own admission had been lining up the winner Cotto - Martinez fight with the winner fighting Canelo since 2013 or so. Why in **** would Cotto fight GGG when he'd been promised Canelo? He even paid the man step aside and if he hadn'r I believe the WBC woulda just granted exception ... it was their damn plan after all. Besides Cotto showed exactly how much he cared about the WBC trinket.

Canelo was never fighting Golovkin before Cotto for the same reasons above. Why the fuck would he? He then immediately negotiated with Khan, fought him, and then announced from the ring he'd fight GGG at 160 - where there is there any room for saying Golovkin 'killed' that fight? His offer literally got accepted in after the next fight

Erislandy 'I can get a $ mil for fighting Delvin' Lara? Networks and money, man - and I won't lie probably HBO didn't want the risk either... Lara did have a chance of making GGG look less than invincible. Can I prove it couldn't have been made or say that GGG couldna got it if he'd pushed? No. I'll grant that. But that's down to HBO and as long as there's legitimate reason to believe there was a roadblock why you wanna blame the fighter? You gonna blame the fighters for every other fight that didn't happen because of a network war... Spence and Bud, Kovalev and Stevenson.. countless others. Sure I know Al let Wade go over, but then why wouldn't he?

Saunders... was actually offered his highest previous payday by a margin - £1.5 mil - apx $2.2 mil and twice what any previous GGG opponent had been offered outside of PPV. Calling an offer a lowball is a only works if you know what's in the budget... Do you have access to the HBO books for 2016 Q1? Nah... thought not.

So yeah. Money. It's always about the money, Scrappy. Grow up and talk like a damn adult, maybe learn to think like one too. I'm always here if you want to talk sense, but I think I'm pretty much done wasting time on ya otherwise.

like I predicted, you are just a silly excuse-making fanboy...

you cannot help yourself LMAO

all you could provide is a pathetic list of silly excuses... SILLY EXCUSES THAT COULD - AND HAVE BEEN - SIMPLY IGNORED BY MANY OTHER FIGHTERS.. proving you wrong!

Cotto was never going to...

STOP !!

kid, what the fcuk is wrong with you... ?

a snot-nosed fanboy does not get to put words in a fighters mouth

you, making shlt up... is not... "offering plausible alternative explanations and reasons"... that is you blurting out childish excuses THAT COULD - AND HAVE BEEN - SIMPLY IGNORED BY MANY OTHER FIGHTERS

your " plausible " fanboy ******ity... does not change what happened...

BEFORE shlt got real:

October 2014
Ring TV.com: If you could, for a moment, could you specifically address the notion of fighting Andre Ward and/or Miguel Cotto or Canelo Alvarez?

Gennady Golovkin: I have big respect for Andre Ward. He has accomplished many things in the ring. My focus is to fight at middleweight unless there is a big fight at 154 or 168 that would be on pay-per-view. I think both Canelo and Cotto are warriors in the ring. They both have big hearts and both would be a big event and pay-per-view fights.
https://www.ring tv.com/362749-gennady-golovkin-puts-miguel-cotto-atop-his-wish-list/


AFTER shlt got real:

October 2015
"Cotto-Canelo takes place at a catch-weight of 155-pounds. Canelo has never fought above 155. Cotto has never fought at the full middleweight limit. He fought Daniel Geale at 157 and Sergio Martinez at 159. Cotto stated in past interviews that all of his future opponents would be subject to a catch-weight.....

"I'm champion of 160, middleweight is my comfortable weight. For what [reason would I do a catch-weight]? For business or for what? I'm a boxer. I'm the champion of the middleweight division," Golovkin said."

http://www.boxingscene.com/golovkin-rejects-idea-catch-weight-cotto-canelo--97113

by refusing to negotiate on weight, Bullshltkin was never going to receive/make an offer..... and you know it

they did absolutely nothing to make that fight

oh, and there is that little thing about taking step-aside money

you are just another excuse blurting fanboy...

Canelo was never fighting...

STOP !!

a snot-nosed fanboy does not get to make up stories, and put words into a professional fighters mouth... what the fcuk is wrong with you...?

making shlt up... is not... "offering plausible alternative explanations and reasons"... that is you blurting out childish excuses THAT COULD - AND HAVE BEEN - SIMPLY IGNORED BY MANY OTHER FIGHTERS... AGAIN !!

FACT: when Mr " anyone from 154-168 " totally refused to negotiate on weight with the SUPERSTARS Cotto and Canelo... he removed himself from contention, AND HE KNEW IT !!

Gennady Golovkin Next Fight: 'Triple G' Refuses to Fight Cotto-Canelo Winner on Catch Weight..

https://www.latinpost.com/articles/87759/20151019/gennady-golovkin-next-fight-triple-g-refuses-cotto-canelo-winner.htm

grow up, and stop making excuses... you silly fanboy clown... PLENTY of fighters did what they needed to do to make big fights... Hypekin is not one of them

Erislandy 'I can get a $ mil for fighting Delvin' Lara? Networks and money, man - and I won't lie probably HBO didn't want the risk either... Lara did have a chance of making GGG look less than invincible. Can I prove it couldn't have been made or say that GGG couldna got it if he'd pushed? No. I'll grant that. But that's down to HBO and as long as there's legitimate reason to believe there was a roadblock why you wanna blame the fighter? You gonna blame the fighters for every other fight that didn't happen because of a network war... Spence and Bud, Kovalev and Stevenson.. countless others. Sure I know Al let Wade go over, but then why wouldn't he?

dude, Golovkin couldn't make a fight with... ANYONE !

it is clearly obvious who the " anyone from 154-168 " common-denominator is

Lara needed to... " prove himself "... at 160...

but... Brook, Rosado, and Munguia... did not need to... "prove themselves" at 160... no no no... they were fine... and they were fine because, they would be "available" throughout the fight

FACT: Canelo had the balls to fight Lara... Golovkin, did not

Saunders... was actually offered his highest previous payday by a margin - £1.5 mil - apx $2.2 mil and twice what any previous GGG opponent had been offered outside of PPV. Calling an offer a lowball is a only works if you know what's in the budget... Do you have access to the HBO books for 2016 Q1? Nah... thought not.

Golovkin had 3x opportunities to fight Saunders.....

1) Golovkin ducked Saunders with an OBVIOUS $1.5m low-ball, and then quickly ran off to fight Dominic Wade..... with NO COUNTER-OFFER, that was a take-it-or-leave-it lowball

btw... that is NOT how you make a fight... and anyone other than a starstruck fanboy clown would be well-aware of that fact

that is not how you make a fight... that is how you bullshlt your idiot fanbase

oh, immediately after that fight... Saunders watched Kell Brook make $4-5m+

... and the reason why is obvious... and it had nothing to do with inadequate funding you lying clown

I will paint you a picture fanboy, fill in the blanks yourself...

they were willing to split the pot fairly with Kell Brook, because they wanted to fight K*** B**** ... and they were not willing to split the pot fairly with Billy-Joe Saunders, because they did not want to fight B****-J** S*******

(who supplied the pot is IRRELEVANT you vaglna.. that obvious lowball had NOTHING to do with inadequate funding... because they did the exact same thing to Danny Jacobs, with the exact same offer... "Quillin money"... just ask for links

they wanted nothing to do with Danny Jacobs either, they did everything they could to kill that fight... they put up sooooo many roadblocks that it literally cost them a fight-date... and all they had to pay Jacobs was an extra 250k... that tells you the whole story... Hypekin would rather cut off one of his fingers than get in there with a threat

that was a absolute 100% duck of Saunders

FACT: they could have taken that fight... but, they CHOSE not to

2) Saunders signed to fight Golovkin in Kazakhstan, but Golovkin understandably fought Canelo

3) the very second Saunders said he would be available in June, there was no other fight to make..... that was an OBVIOUS no-brainer

Munguia Spike and Vanes..... should never have been mentioned

Saunders was running around with Golovkin's " dream "..... calling him Pvssy-Borat..... and presenting Golovkin with pens at his presser, to replace the ones he kept losing

Pvssykin abandoned his dream of becoming undisputed middleweight champ for the security of no-hoper Vanes...that was also an absolute 100% duck... LMAO

FACT: they could have taken that fight... but, they CHOSE not to

and nope, stop blurting out childish excuses...

1) nobody knew how long Canelo would be banned at that point, the hearing was not until April... so waiting around for Canelo like a little lost puppy is not a valid excuse to abandon your "dream"

2) who fkn cares... Golovkin would call the shots regarding the date

3) Golovkin walked away from the rematch over money, only an 11th hour offer of 45% from Hoya secured the fight... so he could fought whoever he wanted when Canelo tested positive... and he would have been in a much better position as the undisputed unified champ

Pvssykin bltched out on his... " dream "... shattering yours lol

stop making excuses you lame fanboy bltch !!

you just showed your true colors son

[aboutfkntime]

You don't even score fights bro...fall back

you think that Lemieux is on the same level as Canelo/Jacobs

so yea... fall WAAAAAY back son

[ruedboy]

As many of you know, betting odds gives a chance to look into how "risky" a fight is "at the time" that it happens which all play a role in evaluating a fighters legacy and greatness. Let's look into some of the most famous, some would even argue "great", fighters in the last 20 years:

(Per Odds Shark)

Mayweather
- Conor McGregor -350
- Andre Berto -3000
- Manny Pacquiao -200
- Marcos Maidana -600
- Marcos Maidana -900
- Canelo Alvarez -300
- Robert Guerrero -600
- Miguel Cotto -700
- Victor Ortiz -500
- Shane Mosley -400
- Juan Manuel Marquez -360
- Ricky Hatton -240
- Oscar De La Hoya -190 or 3 to 2 underdog
- Carlos Baldomir -700
- Zab Judah -500
- Shambra Mitchell -950
- Arturo Gatti -400
- Henry Bruseles -2000
- Corrales - 120
- Castillo ? Couldn't find
- Hernandez? Couldn't find

Pacquiao

-Thurman -120
- Broner -227
- Mathysse -230
- Jeff Horn -600
- Jessie Vargas -900
- Timothy Bradley -245
- Floyd Mayweather Jr. +160
- Chris Algieri -700
- Timothy Bradley -280
- Brandon Rios -550
- Juan Manuel Marquez -220
- Timothy Bradley -450
- Juan Manuel Marquez -1100
- Shane Mosley -850
- Antonio Margarito -450
- Joshua Clottey -600
- Miguel Cotto -270
- Ricky Hatton -225
- Oscar De La Hoya +160
- David Diaz -600
- Juan Manuel Marquez -210
- Marco Antonio Barrera -330
- Jorge Solis -850
- Erik Morales -180
- Oscar Larios -600
- Barrera - Barerra was 3 to 1 favorite
- Ledwaba - was 10 to 1 favorite
- Morales - 110 with Morales as favorite
- Sasakul - Sasakul as favorite? Can anyone confirm


Canelo

- Kovalev -400
- Jacobs -500
- Fielding -2500
- Gennady Golovkin +155
- Gennady Golovkin +150
- Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. -425
- Liam Smith -1400
- Amir Khan -650
- Miguel Cotto -300
- James Kirkland -900
- Erislandy Lara -285
- Alfredo Angulo -670
- Floyd Mayweather +235
- Austin Trout -220
- Josesito Lopez -2000
- Shane Mosley -605
- Kermit Cintron -1200
- Alfonso Gomez -2200
- Ryan Rhodes -890
- Matthew Hatton -1500
- Lovemore N’dou -2000
- Carlos Baldomir -1700
- Luciano Leonel Cuello -1200


Golovkin

Ouma - 14 to 1
Simon - 25 to 1
Proksa - 4 to 1
Rosado - 34 to 1
Ishida - 50 to 1
Macklin - 12 to 1
Stevens - 15 to 1
Adama - 9 to 1
Geale - 7 to 1
Rubio 20 to 1
Murray - 20 to 1
Monroe Jr - 25 to 1
Lemieux - 13 to 1
Wade - 70 to 1
Brook - 7.5 to 1
Jacobs - 4.8 to 1
Canelo - 1.8 to 1
Vanes - 25 to 1
Canelo - 1.9 to 1
Derv - 4.5 to 1
Szeemeta - 42 to 1

Lastly, I wanted to see when these guy's were really good or really bad in betting odds. I tallied when they were an underdog, 5 to 1 or less favorite or 20 to 1 or more favorite. Here's what I got:

Mayweather
- Bouts in which he was the underdog – 0 (Possibly Corrales, De La Hoya or Castillo? I can't find supporting data on Corrales/Castillo. I did read that DLH closed as a 3 to 2 favorite, during ring walks. I can't verify accuracy though.
- Bouts in which he was a 5 to 1 favorite or less – 10
- Bouts in which he was a 20 to 1 favorite or more - 2

Pacquiao
– Bouts in which he was the underdog – 6 (Mayweather, De La Hoya, Barerra, Morales, Sasakul, and Ledwaba).
- Bouts in which he was a 5 to 1 favorite or less – 19
- Bouts in which he was a 20 to 1 favorite or more - 0

Canelo

- Bouts in which he was the underdog – 3 (Mayweather, Golovkin 1 and 2)
- Bouts in which he was a 5 to 1 favorite or less – 9
- Bouts in which he was the 20 to 1 favorite or more - 3

Golovkin

- Bouts in which he was the underdog – 0
- Bouts in which he was a favorite by 5 to 1 or less – 5
- Bouts in which he was a favorite by 20 to 1 or more - 8


In conclusion:

- Most amount of times as underdog - Pacquiao with 6
- Most amount of times in fights as 5 to 1 favorite or less - Pac with 19
- Most amount of times in fights as 20 to 1 or more favorite - Golovkin with 8

Good thread! You probably heard already but Floyd was a 4-1 favorite vs Castillo in first fight. (According to BoxRec)

[aboutfkntime]

Golovkin, being named in a thread about taking risks... is... amusing

[Chollo Vista]

Good thread! You probably heard already but Floyd was a 4-1 favorite vs Castillo in first fight. (According to BoxRec)

Thanks, I'll update the OP