Comments Thread For: Another A-Ward Performance: BScene's Ratings Update

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The Super Six Super Middleweight tournament only needs to go right two more times. One semi-final remains, and then we get the conclusion.

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[Dave Rado]

by Cliff Rold
Guess who does belong at 147?

Welterweights who are already there is the correct answer. WBC titlist Victor Ortiz (29-2-2, 22 KO) for instance, fresh off his thrilling win versus Andre Berto, possessing youth, size, and, most importantly, the sort of hand speed Pacquiao has been nowhere near at Welterweight so far, could be the correct answer. Making a fight that can be guaranteed to be a fight, for as long as it lasts, in the division Pacquiao is close to cleaning out, is the correct answer.

Pacquiao will be favored over just about anyone right now. Younger, hungry fighters are typically where the element of surprise lies. If anyone doesn’t believe it, ask Marco Antonio Barrera how much being a strong favorite over Manny Pacquiao meant once upon a time.

Maybe Ortiz can’t do anything like that. Watching him try would be more entertaining to watch than anything else in the division. It would damn sure be better than what we saw on Saturday.

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Exactly. I wish other boxing writers would be more vocal about this. In particular, I wish The Ring would be more openly critical of Pacquiao's recent matchmaking.

Edit: I've just noticed that Michael Rosenthal has stepped up to the plate on The Ring's website. I hope The Ring magazine follows suit soon. The JMM fight at any weight above 140 is a sham mismatch and it should be panned by all boxing writers.

[emhoffk]

Cliff,

Excellent ratings again - other than my standing gripes about you not rating Erdei or Margarito - I just have a few for this month.

HWY - I spoke to a friend of mine how knows the Euro heavys pretty well and he says that Ustinov is a big stiff. I rate Arreola, Dimitrenko and Pulav - to name a few - higher than Ustinov.

SM - Quillin can fight (and I know his mgr well) but I'm not sure he deserves to be ahead of the likes of Artur Abraham, Allen Green, Karoly Balzsay or even Aaron Pryor Jr. I get that Abraham and Green are on losing streaks but they've lost to top guys and I don't punish fighters for that. All of the above have beaten better opposition than Quillin. He's top 15-20 for sure though.

W - Still object to Senchenko being in the top ten - he's an overprotected beltholder. Not sure Ouali should be rated ahead of Randall Bailey either. If you saw their fight, you'd know what I'm talking about. I'd put Brad Solomon and possibly Mike Jones ahead of either Senchenko and Ouali as well.

JW - Can't quibble too much though I have Kendall Holt in my top ten as opposed to Morales.

Jr. Fly and Straw - Just think that you have Donnie Nietes and Florante Condes in the wrong divisions. Nietes vacated his WBO Straw belt and moved up to 108 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnie_Nietes - see also WBO ratings where he is no longer listed as champ at 105 and is no. 1 contender at 108. Condes is ranked by most every organization in the top ten at 105. He did fight his last one at 108 but all of the guys in these lower weight classes switch around a little.

Otherwise - keep up the good work Cliff. Lord knows it's hard tracking all these guys.

[crold1]

Cliff,

Excellent ratings again - other than my standing gripes about you not rating Erdei or Margarito - I just have a few for this month.

HWY - I spoke to a friend of mine how knows the Euro heavys pretty well and he says that Ustinov is a big stiff. I rate Arreola, Dimitrenko and Pulav - to name a few - higher than Ustinov.

SM - Quillin can fight (and I know his mgr well) but I'm not sure he deserves to be ahead of the likes of Artur Abraham, Allen Green, Karoly Balzsay or even Aaron Pryor Jr. I get that Abraham and Green are on losing streaks but they've lost to top guys and I don't punish fighters for that. All of the above have beaten better opposition than Quillin. He's top 15-20 for sure though.

W - Still object to Senchenko being in the top ten - he's an overprotected beltholder. Not sure Ouali should be rated ahead of Randall Bailey either. If you saw their fight, you'd know what I'm talking about. I'd put Brad Solomon and possibly Mike Jones ahead of either Senchenko and Ouali as well.

JW - Can't quibble too much though I have Kendall Holt in my top ten as opposed to Morales.

Jr. Fly and Straw - Just think that you have Donnie Nietes and Florante Condes in the wrong divisions. Nietes vacated his WBO Straw belt and moved up to 108 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnie_Nietes - see also WBO ratings where he is no longer listed as champ at 105 and is no. 1 contender at 108. Condes is ranked by most every organization in the top ten at 105. He did fight his last one at 108 but all of the guys in these lower weight classes switch around a little.

Otherwise - keep up the good work Cliff. Lord knows it's hard tracking all these guys.

Heavy: Maybe. Outside the top five, its mostly stiffs all around.

SM: Quillin at ten represents his just getting into contention and I think he has. Abraham hasn't won a serious fight in almost two years. He's barely won 3 rounds in that time. Balzsay or Pryor were also considered.

WW: Saw it. Good point. I'll leave it for now. Welter is pretty weak outside the top 2-3.

Jr. Fly/Straw: Nietes I'm waiting for to fight for a belt at 108. He could blow ti and come back in a 1 off. Condes hasn't fought at 105 in almost a year. I might be jumping the gun.

Thanks for the good words.

[LeadUppercut]

Exactly. I wish other boxing writers would be more vocal about this. In particular, I wish The Ring would be more openly critical of Pacquiao's recent matchmaking.

Edit: I've just noticed that Michael Rosenthal has stepped up to the plate on The Ring's website. I hope The Ring magazine follows suit soon. The JMM fight at any weight above 140 is a sham mismatch and it should be panned by all boxing writers.

Agree 100%, and I also read Rosenthal's article yesterday.

" Pacquiao-Marquez could be a defendable matchup even today – at about 135 pounds, Marquez's natural weight. At 144, the catch weight to which the fighters’ agreed, this will be another in a depressing series of mismatches for Pacquiao.....

..... I think people are beginning to catch on to the fact that Team Pacquiao isn’t truly concerned about entertaining fans. It's all about money.....

..... Not Marquez. Not at 144 pounds. Not now. "

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/167355-pacquiao-marquez-will-be-a-disaster

[LeadUppercut]

Heavy: Maybe. Outside the top five, its mostly stiffs all around.

SM: Quillin at ten represents his just getting into contention and I think he has. Abraham hasn't won a serious fight in almost two years. He's barely won 3 rounds in that time. Balzsay or Pryor were also considered.

WW: Saw it. Good point. I'll leave it for now. Welter is pretty weak outside the top 2-3.

Jr. Fly/Straw: Nietes I'm waiting for to fight for a belt at 108. He could blow ti and come back in a 1 off. Condes hasn't fought at 105 in almost a year. I might be jumping the gun.

Thanks for the good words.

Hi Cliff, a superb read, as usual.....

On a side note..... how the hell does Pacquiao keep his P4P ranking when his opponents since Marquez have been nothing but old men, faded champions, and no-hopers?

e.g. compare Pac's recent resume to Ward's, or Maravilla's.

I mean, aside from the catchweight fights - which simply do not fit P4P criteria - how can you be ranked P4P when you will not fight an opponent who is on top of his game?

[crold1]

Hi Cliff, a superb read, as usual.....

On a side note..... how the hell does Pacquiao keep his P4P ranking when his opponents since Marquez have been nothing but old men, faded champions, and no-hopers?

e.g. compare Pac's recent resume to Ward's, or Maravilla's.

I mean, aside from the catchweight fights - which simply do not fit P4P criteria - how can you be ranked P4P when you will not fight an opponent who is on top of his game?

You're overstating. Ward has Kessler. Green and Bika are no better wins that Marg, catch or no. Abraham and Clottey = push. Ward will make a move; Froch could too if he wins the tourney. Weigh that against a Hatton and Cotto who were still outstanding wins IMO and Josh Clottey was a top five Welter (nothing wrong with that). If Donaire or Martinez had that extra push right now, it might be different but both are stalled...for now. It's always changing. Paraphrasing George Carlin...if it's undisputed, why are they still fighting?

[LeadUppercut]

You're overstating. Ward has Kessler. Green and Bika are no better wins that Marg, catch or no. Abraham and Clottey = push. Ward will make a move;

Maybe I overstated a little, but I regard Kessler as a better win for Ward than anyone on Manny's recent resume.

When was the last time Pac fought The Ring #1?

Hell, when was the last time Pac fought an opponent who was in his prime ?

And I also think that Bika was probably a better win than Margarito.

Bika was ranked, whereas Margo has looked ordinary since Mosley. He could not have beaten any of the top welters, and he even resorted to movement to keep Garcia off him.

Weigh that against a Hatton and Cotto who were still outstanding wins IMO and Josh Clottey was a top five Welter (nothing wrong with that).

When you write your "Measured against All Time" articles, which are fantastic btw - keep em coming bro, you have on occasion gone to lengths to point out that a legacy is not just about "who", it is more about "when".

I see Cotto and Hatton - Cotto especially - as cracked egg's.

Cotto was extremely vulnerable, and nowhere near on top of his game, and I am not even referring to the catch-weight. The same applies to Hatton, albiet to a lesser degree.

I think that Pacquiao has enjoyed some pretty masterful match-making, the timing regarding his opponents..... has been nothing short of immaculate, take Mosley for example.

If Donaire or Martinez had that extra push right now, it might be different but both are stalled...for now. It's always changing. Paraphrasing George Carlin...if it's undisputed, why are they still fighting?

Fair call, cant argue with that

Not poking you with a stick or anything, but when can we expect the next MaAT?

[crold1]

Maybe I overstated a little, but I regard Kessler as a better win for Ward than anyone on Manny's recent resume.

When was the last time Pac fought The Ring #1?

Hell, when was the last time Pac fought an opponent who was in his prime ?

And I also think that Bika was probably a better win than Margarito.

Bika was ranked, whereas Margo has looked ordinary since Mosley. He could not have beaten any of the top welters, and he even resorted to movement to keep Garcia off him.



When you write your "Measured against All Time" articles, which are fantastic btw - keep em coming bro, you have on occasion gone to lengths to point out that a legacy is not just about "who", it is more about "when".

I see Cotto and Hatton - Cotto especially - as cracked egg's.

Cotto was extremely vulnerable, and nowhere near on top of his game, and I am not even referring to the catch-weight. The same applies to Hatton, albiet to a lesser degree.

I think that Pacquiao has enjoyed some pretty masterful match-making, the timing regarding his opponents..... has been nothing short of immaculate, take Mosley for example.



Fair call, cant argue with that

Not poking you with a stick or anything, but when can we expect the next MaAT?

I think Cotto was still a bad apple who could compete with just about anyone but Pac (and even there he competed hard early) and Hatton was coming off a strong win. They just aren't better than Pac.

As to MaAT...soon enough. Thinking Barrera and Marquez are due, but I don't want to do Marquez until after Pac III now. Maybe Rafa? Hmm...

[emhoffk]

Jr. Fly/Straw: Nietes I'm waiting for to fight for a belt at 108. He could blow ti and come back in a 1 off. Condes hasn't fought at 105 in almost a year. I might be jumping the gun.

Thanks for the good words.

Cliff - Re: Nietes - at the very least you need to remove the WBO champ designation from his rating - he vacated. Check the WBO website, Raul Garcia is listed as the full champ - Nietes is no. 1 at 108. He's also already fought once at 108.

In fact, both he and Condes last had fights at 105 in August of 2010 - then one subsequent fight at 108. I can see if you maybe wanted to rate Condes at 108, fine (I disagree but at least you have a reason). But if you have Condes at 108 you have to apply the same logic to Nietes and rate him at 108 as well.

There's no shame in admitting that you missed the memo that Nietes vacated and moved up - lol. It's hard to follow all these guys - especially at 105.