Comments Thread For: Muhammad Ali, Barry McGuigan Lay Praise on Cooper

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

Sir Henry Cooper passed away on Sunday at the grand old age of 76. Cooper won the British, Commonwealth and European heavyweight titles during his 17-year career; he also achieved the remarkable feat of netting three Lonsdale belts outright after a 12-year period of domestic dominance – with only the world crown eluding his grasp.

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[physiker]

Fine words from Ali: “I am at a loss for words over the death of my friend, Henry Cooper. Henry always had a smile for me; a warm and embracing smile. It was always a pleasure being in Henry’s company. I will miss my old friend. He was a great fighter and a gentleman,”

But is the author of the piece a biased Brit, or otherwise biased. His "Ironically, Cooper later went onto do something even the great Liston could not manage when lasting 11 rounds with a streaking Ali, ensuring that his name will forever be linked with ‘The Greatest’..."

is off the mark in several ways. First he fails to state that the 11 rounds was over 2 bouts. Then I believe it is public knowledge that not only did Cooper not want to fight Liston when it was suggested, he said he didn't even want to be in the same vicinity of him.

Still RIP, and he was a fine gentleman and given his weight, a fine heavyweight boxer gong up against bigger guys.

How do you think he would have done as a cruiserweight?? Probabaly pretty damn good.

[Drunk Punch]

Man this is sad news. I'm bummed.

[Neckodeemus]

Fine words from Ali: “I am at a loss for words over the death of my friend, Henry Cooper. Henry always had a smile for me; a warm and embracing smile. It was always a pleasure being in Henry’s company. I will miss my old friend. He was a great fighter and a gentleman,”

But is the author of the piece a biased Brit, or otherwise biased. His "Ironically, Cooper later went onto do something even the great Liston could not manage when lasting 11 rounds with a streaking Ali, ensuring that his name will forever be linked with ‘The Greatest’..."

is off the mark in several ways. First he fails to state that the 11 rounds was over 2 bouts. Then I believe it is public knowledge that not only did Cooper not want to fight Liston when it was suggested, he said he didn't even want to be in the same vicinity of him.

Still RIP, and he was a fine gentleman and given his weight, a fine heavyweight boxer gong up against bigger guys.

How do you think he would have done as a cruiserweight?? Probabaly pretty damn good.

It is not biased in the slightest and the fact that I write about two Clay/Ali fights, one over 5 and the other over 6 rounds would indicate that the two bouts, when combined, gives you the 11 rounds. Which the reader should be able to work out.

There is also mention of the fact that he was discussed as an opponent for Liston and the only reason the story of Jim Wicks refusing a Liston fight and claiming that "I wouldn't let my guy meet him at a public event let alone a fight" is omitted is due to the fact that I felt it fitting to write about the major fights that happened, rather than the one they quite rightly turned down.

There's no other bias as I rate Liston massively, enough to suggest that Cooper going 11 for 7 in terms of rounds was a notable thing and well worth a mention, and not as a means to denigrate Liston, either.

If there was national bias then it would have gone down the lines of Cooper being robbed of the first result, which he clearly was not and I make explicit mention of this.

[Neckodeemus]

In terms of a cruiserweight career. Cooper is quite similar to Enzo Mac in many ways and would have certainly picked up a world title at the weight, eyebrows permitting.

[physiker]

It is not biased in the slightest and the fact that I write about two Clay/Ali fights, one over 5 and the other over 6 rounds would indicate that the two bouts, when combined, gives you the 11 rounds. Which the reader should be able to work out.

There is also mention of the fact that he was discussed as an opponent for Liston and the only reason the story of Jim Wicks refusing a Liston fight and claiming that "I wouldn't let my guy meet him at a public event let alone a fight" is omitted is due to the fact that I felt it fitting to write about the major fights that happened, rather than the one they quite rightly turned down.

There's no other bias as I rate Liston massively, enough to suggest that Cooper going 11 for 7 in terms of rounds was a notable thing and well worth a mention, and not as a means to denigrate Liston, either.

If there was national bias then it would have gone down the lines of Cooper being robbed of the first result, which he clearly was not and I make explicit mention of this.

So you are Terence Dooley?

If so, thank you for your reply.

However it makes no sense for one to comment on one's own bias or not. This per force is for others to do. It's a bit like being an alcoholic or other addict. The person is the last one to know or to admit. And the first to proclaim it isn't so. And Re Liston, I was referring to some quote that I think Cooper himself made about crossing the street to avoid Liston if he happened to see him, not a statement from others.

Still think good reporting would have added the words "in their two fights" to the 11 rounds. And it is good form for a "thank you" to start off your comments now, as I was trying to give a rational, opinion of your piece, not a crazy kind of thing that is too prevalent here.

[physiker]

In terms of a cruiserweight career. Cooper is quite similar to Enzo Mac in many ways and would have certainly picked up a world title at the weight, eyebrows permitting.

Well here I think you underrate Cooper. I think he would have held such a title a lot longer than Enzo. Probably would take a cruiser's punch a lot better than Enzo, and probably threw harder, especially of course his hook.

Maybe even today, they have better stuff to close off cuts?
Maybe you know the answer to this query? Thank you.

[Neckodeemus]

So you are Terence Dooley?

If so, thank you for your reply.

However it makes no sense for one to comment on one's own bias or not. This per force is for others to do. It's a bit like being an alcoholic or other addict. The person is the last one to know or to admit. And the first to proclaim it isn't so. And Re Liston, I was referring to some quote that I think Cooper himself made about crossing the street to avoid Liston if he happened to see him, not a statement from others.

Still think good reporting would have added the words "in their two fights" to the 11 rounds. And it is good form for a "thank you" to start off your comments now, as I was trying to give a rational, opinion of your piece, not a crazy kind of thing that is too prevalent here.

Yes, and I often start off by thanking posters for the reads if you check through my posting history. On this occasion I was typing fast as I have other stuff in the works and it is a Bank Holiday Monday over here so that added to the speed of reply.

As for the Liston statement, it was Wicks, Cooper's manager, who made the statement as he knew it was a bad match for his fighter. It is not attributable to Cooper. Newspaper articles and Cooper's Facebook page carry the Wicks quote: "We don't even want to meet that geezer Liston walking down the street, let alone in the ring."

I'd imagine that Cooper, as a fighter, would have said he would take the fight despite the big odds presented by Liston and his jab.

As for the initial quibble. The fact that both fights were made mention of, both round totals were given and there was no mention of a phantom 11 rounder or a third fight would lead to the assumption that both are put together to come up with the total. As you yourself did.

[Neckodeemus]

Well here I think you underrate Cooper. I think he would have held such a title a lot longer than Enzo. Probably would take a cruiser's punch a lot better than Enzo, and probably threw harder, especially of course his hook.

Maybe even today, they have better stuff to close off cuts?
Maybe you know the answer to this query? Thank you.

I'd say that the stuff they had back then was better for sealing cuts. There are legends of cut sealing mixtures so potent that they had to be chipped off at the end of fights. Although this may have ended beyond the fifties.

Better eating habits, a nutrionalist and use of a plastic surgeon may have allowed Cooper's cuts to become less of an issue had he been around today. Ricky Hatton's career looked like it may be derailed by them but he adapted and coped.

The worry for Cooper is that he'd be small even for cruiser. He was around 180-190 for many bouts so why not place him as a light-heavy? Enzo is 6' 4'' and there are some big cruisers around. Then again, at 6' 1'' and a bit, Henry may have used modern training techniques to build into a rock solid specimen at the poundage. It is hard to say for sure.

The Enzo Mc comparison is also based on career trajectory, both just falling short at the top level as Enzo lost out to the consensus divisional boss for what I considered the genuine world title.

PS Thanks for the read ;0)

[physiker]

I'd say that the stuff they had back then was better for sealing cuts. There are legends of cut sealing mixtures so potent that they had to be chipped off at the end of fights. Although this may have ended beyond the fifties.

Better eating habits, a nutrionalist and use of a plastic surgeon may have allowed Cooper's cuts to become less of an issue had he been around today. Ricky Hatton's career looked like it may be derailed by them but he adapted and coped.

The worry for Cooper is that he'd be small even for cruiser. He was around 180-190 for many bouts so why not place him as a light-heavy? Enzo is 6' 4'' and there are some big cruisers around. Then again, at 6' 1'' and a bit, Henry may have used modern training techniques to build into a rock solid specimen at the poundage. It is hard to say for sure.

The Enzo Mc comparison is also based on career trajectory, both just falling short at the top level as Enzo lost out to the consensus divisional boss for what I considered the genuine world title.

PS Thanks for the read ;0)

Now you have me curious. RE the cut-closing stuff. My understanding is that now the only thing allowed is a 1 or 2% adrenalin solution.

Do you know off the top, what substances they used then? Maybe they were halted becuase they were dangerous systemically?

Thanks.