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The demise of the American heavyweight

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  • #71
    Originally posted by ShoulderRoll View Post

    It wouldn't be accepted because "everyone outside of America" didn't dominate super MW size and below for over 100 years then suddenly fall off the map.

    Which is exactly what has happened with America and the heavyweight division.

    Couldnt an alternative conclusion be that during the time Americans dominated it was nowhere near as international as it is today?

    America still has far more active HWs than any nation on the planet. If we go by Boxrec the US currently has over 5 times as many HWs as the UK and account for roughly a quarter of all HW boxers on the planet.

    Its funny because this exact same "NFL and NBA doe" "rest of the world has nothing better to do" argument is now starting to be directed at MMA as well.

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    • #72
      Originally posted by TMLT87 View Post


      Couldnt an alternative conclusion be that during the time Americans dominated it was nowhere near as international as it is today?

      America still has far more active HWs than any nation on the planet. If we go by Boxrec the US currently has over 5 times as many HWs as the UK and account for roughly a quarter of all HW boxers on the planet.

      Its funny because this exact same "NFL and NBA doe" "rest of the world has nothing better to do" argument is now starting to be directed at MMA as well.
      By year seven of Dak Prescott or Patrick Mahomes careers they'll have made enough that they could but there own fight on. Russell Westbrook makes 41 million and had 200 million dollar contract for 5 years. Deontay Wilder made 26 million and that's the high point. Russell Westbrook at the end wilk make 47 million regardless of performance. So parents see this and say why should my child get a concussion when he can play a contact sport that will have less likelihood of that happening. Mike Trout and many other MLB players have over 300 million dollar contracts the most if Wilder was lucky was 100 million. NFL players get concussion too as you would say, yes they do but they have to stay four years in college. A college degree opens up doors in America; so why when a parent has control of their children till 18 would they let them box which doesn't have long term or short term benefits when the NFL, which has the same concussion rates, can get their child in to college and a job that can provide a lifestyle.
      Mushashi likes this.

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      • #73
        Originally posted by The plunger man View Post
        The highest salary for an NFL player in 2020 was $31,509,000 million dollars......and that was Dak Presscott and if you take the very best heavyweights salary then the heavyweight champion is earning more by quite some margin.....so there is still money in boxing so that’s nulls out the NFL argument
        Dak Prescott is getting paid that for 7 years is the best Heavyweight getting paid 31 million for 7 years? Are they getting Mike 426 million for 10 years which is 35 million per year or Russell Westbrooks 41 million which increase till 2022 or Pat Mahomes 450 million which is 45 million a year.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by Mmann2e View Post

          Dak Prescott is getting paid that for 7 years is the best Heavyweight getting paid 31 million for 7 years? Are they getting Mike 426 million for 10 years which is 35 million per year or Russell Westbrooks 41 million which increase till 2022 or Pat Mahomes 450 million which is 45 million a year.
          Im with you. There’s only so many spots at heavyweight to be able to earn millions. There’s what 52 guys on each nfl team and the average salary is 860k or something. But most of the guys making that little don’t even see the field. The nfl is mostly Americans. The more American heavies there are the more they are in competition with themselves. In boxing you are in the ring yourself, you don’t have a team surrounding you. In the NFL the QB is the most exposed player. They get lauded and criticized the most. Bad QBs don’t win superbowls. Most of the QBs in the nfl are considered “bad”. That’s why there isn’t an endless supply of good QBs, most get paid a ton and crap out. Heavyweight Boxing is much more exposing. Nobody likes to get punched in the face. I played rugby and football, but it’s not the same as taking and delivering punches in just a pair of shorts. Boxing won’t get you a bunch of endorsements. Boxers don’t marry famous people like the other sports. It takes so many things to come together to get to the top in boxing. A loss in boxing can cost you so much, that’s why fights are so hard to make. It’s a brutal road. There’s ingrained systems for the other sports to help you along the way. There’s a huge stigma against boxing too. There’s a lot of obvious reasons against people getting into boxing especially if they have other options.

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          • #75
            I don't think it has anything to do with the NFL, boxing has always been a really tough sport to participate in 'Throughout history' it has never been a golden ticket.

            To pursue any individual sport you need something different about you 'Society may be losing that' in certain area's.

            Combat sports attract a certain type of individual, that may be disappearing 'There are a lot of options now with the improvement of education'.





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            • #76
              Originally posted by The plunger man View Post
              The highest salary for an NFL player in 2020 was $31,509,000 million dollars......and that was Dak Presscott and if you take the very best heavyweights salary then the heavyweight champion is earning more by quite some margin.....so there is still money in boxing so that’s nulls out the NFL argument
              It does not entirely, no. Nearly every High School in the US has a football team. In the Midwest and in the South these football players are revered in their High Schools. Throw in youth football programs every urban area has and the vast majority of rural areas have and the opportunity and the accolades that go along with playing football is much easier to get into young and become the love of the athlete.

              Considering the ease of access to the sport, basketball is also a playground favorite. Now, I do not think youth basketball is as well established in as many areas as youth football, but by high school many athletes have developed a love for basketball that drives them.

              Now... youth boxing arenas? Boxing in high school? The accolades that go with youth sports? The number of your friends going into boxing? Those are all non-existent unless you are in one of a few areas. I live in a down state rural area in Illinois with about 28,000 people. There is not one active boxing gym. We had one while my son was in middle school, but it closed during his junior year. No other option. That totally kills any hope my town has to produce any Boxing talent at all.

              There has to be access to allow a love of the sport needed to drive a kid to dedicate himself, experience the thrill of victory, get the locals to celebrate him, and drive him to be the best. Football and basketball offer that to nearly every kid by the dozens. Easy to see how the best athletes- usually larger, quicker, and likely to grow into 200+ men- would never give boxing a second thought.
              Mushashi likes this.

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              • #77
                Originally posted by _Rexy_ View Post

                On the flip side though, NFL Minimum salary is $600,000 while a heavyweight club fighter, after paying your corner men, might take home what? couple grand? if that?
                I think my argument with this guys was they was arguing that NFL is what these big guys rather go for and I was just proving that if you are an amateur and you have a future has a heavyweight professional and then you make it say like a Joshua , Tyson , Lewis or fury the money they make is far bigger than the top NFL player so money is not really an excuse when they say all the big guys jump ship to NFL rather than pursue a career they trained from a young age.
                I don’t know about the fabric of sport in a america but I am pretty sure from the inner suburbs and projects there 100 of guys that could become the next Mike Tyson or Evander Holyfield.
                Not every big man is good at NFL and not every big guy wants to play NFL ......Maybe the powers of boxing is more than the problem

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                • #78
                  Theres less than 2000 roster slots in the NFL,and a lot of those are RBs, WRs, CBs etc who are not HW sized plus a lot of linemen arent exactly ideal body type either. The average career length in the NFL is extremely short too. If you're a football player that isnt in the NFL (which is 90+%) you have basically no avenues left to make decent money from your profession. Most of footballs talent pool is in the college game not technically being paid for their work.

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                  • #79
                    Originally posted by landotter View Post

                    It does not entirely, no. Nearly every High School in the US has a football team. In the Midwest and in the South these football players are revered in their High Schools. Throw in youth football programs every urban area has and the vast majority of rural areas have and the opportunity and the accolades that go along with playing football is much easier to get into young and become the love of the athlete.

                    Considering the ease of access to the sport, basketball is also a playground favorite. Now, I do not think youth basketball is as well established in as many areas as youth football, but by high school many athletes have developed a love for basketball that drives them.

                    Now... youth boxing arenas? Boxing in high school? The accolades that go with youth sports? The number of your friends going into boxing? Those are all non-existent unless you are in one of a few areas. I live in a down state rural area in Illinois with about 28,000 people. There is not one active boxing gym. We had one while my son was in middle school, but it closed during his junior year. No other option. That totally kills any hope my town has to produce any Boxing talent at all.

                    There has to be access to allow a love of the sport needed to drive a kid to dedicate himself, experience the thrill of victory, get the locals to celebrate him, and drive him to be the best. Football and basketball offer that to nearly every kid by the dozens. Easy to see how the best athletes- usually larger, quicker, and likely to grow into 200+ men- would never give boxing a second thought.
                    it’s a fair argument but take me ....all my friends played football at a very young age and progressed for some of them to almost professional level....football is around you 24/7 ...at school , after school , weekends , television , radio you name it and football has interegrated into it.....me from a young age I loved boxing lived and breathed , my first love at a very young age , gloves given to me by an ex champion when I was 7 or so....Boxing was a sport I loved and chose to compete in no matter how much football was round me and would I travel to make that happen....but living in the U.K. size wise makes it easier to get to a gym so it must be harder in America if gyms are dying out and not every city offers it.....but look at MMA and how that has over taken boxing in the US...so there is a desire to see combat sport and compete in it so something is wrong

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                    • #80
                      Originally posted by The plunger man View Post
                      look at MMA and how that has over taken boxing in the US.
                      America has stopped dominating that as well now that the talent pool has gotten more international. Surprise surprise the same excuses are starting to pop up over that too.
                      The plunger man likes this.

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