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Comments Thread For: Dillian Whyte Stops Alexander Povetkin in Fourth To Get Revenge

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  • Originally posted by Sid-Knee View Post

    OK, so we agree it didn't mean anything.

    What about Frazier in the Ali rematch? How good a win do you think this was? Frazier had been destroyed by Foreman not that long ago, and didn't actually go on to do anything worthwhile after that loss. Do you rate it? If so, how much do you rate it?
    One has two competing ideas here: On the one hand it is easy to explain away almost any victory. People often will say things like "Well Jones beat Toney up, but Toney really had not trained, and if he has things would have been different"... you get the idea. In point of fact it is probably a relative rare circumstance where two great fighters, both had great camps, are at the apogee of their greatness, the judges are excellent and impartial, the ring, gloves, etc favors neither fighter. Usually one guy has some advantages in virtually every fight. This situation is one reason it was great when guys fought more... They would inevitably fight fellow greats more, so we could get a sort of average for who bested who... think LaMotta Robinson for example... these guys fought like 6 times.

    With that said? Frazier fought in a style that has a relatively early expiration date, much like Dempsey, Tyson and Marciano. These guys depended on keeping the head moving...the legs being very strongable to assume a perpetual crouch, a lot of activity vis a vis constant pressure, etc. I had a thought recently regarding this situation regarding Usyk. I had said his head movement was limited, and he fought in back/fourth lines... I watched him younger, at cruiser. I see a guy with great head movement, angles, making adaptations in the ring, hitting to all parts of the body... what gives? I think Usyk has lost a step. as a cruiser watching him he looks like one of the greatest, and is not the same guy I saw against bellew and Chisora by any stretch. Could it be that "expiration?" I don't know, it could also be Usyk needs a certain degree of physical control to do all the things he can/could do... But no9t the same fighter IMO.

    So, was Frazier beat up for the rematch(s)? I don't know, could be he lost a step. He was older and fought in a style that is predisposed to early expiration. Foreman certainly did a number on him. I personally do not rate the Frazier Ali trilogy as "special" regarding Ali. Fighters like Young, Lyle and Shavers, not to mention Norton, were all imo as capable as smoking joe. The thing that stands out for me is how competative the whole era was during that time. A guy like Zora Folley, a decent fighter who was from the era before, would have been pasted fighting in the 70's lol. You see the mark left... a lot of superb technical fighters in the Holmes era, but unable to perform, compete at a top physical level like the 70's guys.

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    • Originally posted by juggernaut666 View Post
      Povetkin lost as I expected but he got the best payday outside a title fight . He wanted the rematch and was bonded to a contract . Why posters didn’t understand that is just normal around here .
      Lol. exactly. Your going to take the fight... it was obvious Povetkin was not doing well.

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      • Originally posted by billeau2 View Post

        One has two competing ideas here: On the one hand it is easy to explain away almost any victory. People often will say things like "Well Jones beat Toney up, but Toney really had not trained, and if he has things would have been different"... you get the idea. In point of fact it is probably a relative rare circumstance where two great fighters, both had great camps, are at the apogee of their greatness, the judges are excellent and impartial, the ring, gloves, etc favors neither fighter. Usually one guy has some advantages in virtually every fight. This situation is one reason it was great when guys fought more... They would inevitably fight fellow greats more, so we could get a sort of average for who bested who... think LaMotta Robinson for example... these guys fought like 6 times.

        With that said? Frazier fought in a style that has a relatively early expiration date, much like Dempsey, Tyson and Marciano. These guys depended on keeping the head moving...the legs being very strongable to assume a perpetual crouch, a lot of activity vis a vis constant pressure, etc. I had a thought recently regarding this situation regarding Usyk. I had said his head movement was limited, and he fought in back/fourth lines... I watched him younger, at cruiser. I see a guy with great head movement, angles, making adaptations in the ring, hitting to all parts of the body... what gives? I think Usyk has lost a step. as a cruiser watching him he looks like one of the greatest, and is not the same guy I saw against bellew and Chisora by any stretch. Could it be that "expiration?" I don't know, it could also be Usyk needs a certain degree of physical control to do all the things he can/could do... But no9t the same fighter IMO.

        So, was Frazier beat up for the rematch(s)? I don't know, could be he lost a step. He was older and fought in a style that is predisposed to early expiration. Foreman certainly did a number on him. I personally do not rate the Frazier Ali trilogy as "special" regarding Ali. Fighters like Young, Lyle and Shavers, not to mention Norton, were all imo as capable as smoking joe. The thing that stands out for me is how competative the whole era was during that time. A guy like Zora Folley, a decent fighter who was from the era before, would have been pasted fighting in the 70's lol. You see the mark left... a lot of superb technical fighters in the Holmes era, but unable to perform, compete at a top physical level like the 70's guys.
        So what is you actual judgement of the win? A good world class win? A very good world class win? A great win? An ATG win? Or did it mean nothing?

        Myself, i'd go with a good win. But i couldn't go beyond that.

        As for Usyk...

        Moving to Heavy isn't exactly going to be natural for him. He did so for the money and the much bigger fights, not because he couldn't make weight any more. Of course it's going to slow him down and change him. But until he's really in there with a big threat, we won't know how he'll react to it.

        Bellew did the right thing in making Usyk fight on the front foot. He's fluent when someone presses him, but becomes a much lesser fighter when it's the other way round. But you get that with most fighters who prefer to fight on the back foot and using the ring. Funny enough, Ali was one of them.

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        • Originally posted by Sid-Knee View Post

          So what is you actual judgement of the win? A good world class win? A very good world class win? A great win? An ATG win? Or did it mean nothing?

          Myself, i'd go with a good win. But i couldn't go beyond that.

          As for Usyk...

          Moving to Heavy isn't exactly going to be natural for him. He did so for the money and the much bigger fights, not because he couldn't make weight any more. Of course it's going to slow him down and change him. But until he's really in there with a big threat, we won't know how he'll react to it.

          Bellew did the right thing in making Usyk fight on the front foot. He's fluent when someone presses him, but becomes a much lesser fighter when it's the other way round. But you get that with most fighters who prefer to fight on the back foot and using the ring. Funny enough, Ali was one of them.
          The win itself was imo very good, the series, primarily because of the first fight was excellent... I am undecided on whether I consider Joe an ATG. He was fantastic but not on a proverbial "short list" of the ten greatest heavy weights.

          I like Bellew. I agree how he handled Usyk. Yes, fighting off the back leg is a skill, it gives the fighter more time to react to the punch because it has to travel farther to reach him. I thought the Chisora fight was a big indicator. I always like to look at the big picture and history repeats itself in boxing. A talented cruiser/light heavy will, at some point go for "the money" as you put it. When they do if the division is weak they can make head way. for example Tunney beating Dempsey. If Usyk can beat a decent marque heavy weight the division is probably still a ways off from being strong, if not, the talent is there... think Ruiz being handled by Jones, in contrast to bob foster, a wicked puncher, losing to Frazier.

          With that said, I like Usyk being around and am anticipating watching him against a guy like Joyce, or Ruiz, etc.

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