Ali vs. Bonavena

[sleazyfellow]

Yeah, Ali stopped bonavena within 15 rounds, when Frazier couldn't do it in 25. But Somehow Ali is featherfisted. Funny stuff!!

bonavena was exhausted when ali took him down, plus he hit him with a good left hook, perfect timing, i dont think ali is featherfisted, but he certainly isnt a joe frazier or foreman when it comes to punching power

[Yogi]

Yeah, Ali stopped bonavena within 15 rounds, when Frazier couldn't do it in 25. But Somehow Ali is featherfisted. Funny stuff!!

Don't get to excited over a one fight result, Butterfly, as you remember that a blown up middleweight of average power (at best, and I feel I'm being too kind with that) like Jimmy Ellis also managed to knock Bonavena down on a couple of occasions.

Heck, as one other of the numerous examples that could be given, and since he's on my mind at the moment after just watching the great fight he had with Ramirez in their rematch, I've always considered Edwin Rosario one of, if not THE single hardest punching lightweight that I've seen in the last 30 years or so...

vs. Juan Nazario: W & L by TKO-8 in two meetings...16 rounds in total.

And yet, we can see one of the lightest punching lightweight champions/title holders of recent history, Pernell Whitaker, score a one-punch straight left hand, 1st round KO over that same opponent in Nazario...

Go figure.

[Kid Achilles]

Ali clearly wasn't featherfisted but his power wasn't great. I'd say when he sat down on his punches he was above average in pure power...6 out of 10 in a numerical rating system. 5 would be average at heavyweight and 2 or 3 would be "featherfisted".

I'm talking pure power as in the actual force deliver that could be detected by a machine. Force alone does not produce knockouts however...timing and speed are critical components that Ali did possess in abundance.

[Yogi]

Nope, Ali must've been feather fisted if he couldn't knock out or even knock down the "glass chinned" pair of Ken Norton & Earnie Shavers in some 50+ rounds of boxing.

*takes tongue out of cheek*

[Kid Achilles]

I'm with you Yogi, the logic people on this forum use is ridiculous sometimes. It's like video game or computer logic, only using numbers as variables and never considering the intangibles. Keep in mind there are the guys who think LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, and **** Tiger were feather fisted because of their KO %'s.

You can't even argue with them because everything is just your biased opinion, and only the numbers count. It's a joke.

[Yogi]

Strange things happen to one's KO% when they are matched againt elite competition in fight after fight after fight after fight, don't they, Kid?

1. **** Tiger
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Jake LaMotta

For their respective punching power, that's about how I'd rate the three you mentioned, with all of them being about average or just a little above above (like LaMotta), above average (like Fullmer), or well above average (like Tiger)...Heck, nevermind punching power, those three right there just may be the three physically strongest fighters to have ever graced the middleweight division, or right up there in the top five or top ten at the very least.

Love that Joey Giadello quote, by the way, which came right after being asked if he was going to trade with Tiger in their upcoming fight, and it went something along the lines of, "Are you kidding? Nevermind trading punches with Tiger, I wouldn't even exchange postal stamps with him."...

Can't say I'd blame him, though, because one can probably count on one hand the number of middleweights in history that'd stand a chance in a fight with Tiger by trading shots with him in the trenches...He could be outslicked obviously, as proven on a few occasions, but to go punch-for-punch with that bull is/was just about suicide for most middleweights.

[Kid Achilles]

Agreed Yogi, it took a freak puncher like Foster who was naturally much bigger than Tiger to best him in a firefight. Too bad Tiger is barely even known by most boxing fans anymore. He's one of those guys, like Marcel Cerdan, who no one in casual boxing circles talks about and becomes more and more impressive the more you learn about him.

I just wish Nigerian born Sam Peter had half of Tiger's dedication to boxing and work ethic as he'd easily be the best heavyweight of his era. He's mmensely strong and durable like Tiger, but lacks his countryman's fighting spirit and mentality.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

wow I was gunna comment on the feather fisted comment but Kid Achilles and Yogi beat me to it...and did abetter job then I would've...

Ali-
"The scariest guy I fought was Sonny Liston, the best boxer I fought was Floyd Patterson, the Strongest (hardest hitting) was Foreman, but the toughest was Joe Frazier..."

[Yogi]

Agreed Yogi, it took a freak puncher like Foster who was naturally much bigger than Tiger to best him in a firefight. Too bad Tiger is barely even known by most boxing fans anymore. He's one of those guys, like Marcel Cerdan, who no one in casual boxing circles talks about and becomes more and more impressive the more you learn about him.

I just wish Nigerian born Sam Peter had half of Tiger's dedication to boxing and work ethic as he'd easily be the best heavyweight of his era. He's mmensely strong and durable like Tiger, but lacks his countryman's fighting spirit and mentality.

Hmm?

Your mention of both Tiger & Cerdan has caused me to pause and think about a fantasy fight that I don't believe I've ever thought of before, Kid...

**** Tiger vs. Marcel Cerdan?

Yeah, I don't believe I ever thought of that one or have even come across it anywhere, but I think my gut is telling me that Cerdan is going to use his better hand & foot speed to get in-and out just often to take a close decision after 15 (he'd have to use just a little more "out" than "in" from what I've seen from him, though)...but I'm a little hesitant with that pick as I can also see Tiger being a bit too big & too strong for Cerdan over the course of the fight, not giving him the room to use his legs at times, and wearing him out over the later portions of the fight with his short power punches to the head and body, especially with that mean left hook of his. Then again, Cerdan was a natural strong fighter for his size, as well (strong legs and shoulders, made him a good inside fighter with EXCEPTIONAL balance...very strong legs on him, I should say), and although not as physically strong as Tiger, could have enough in that department to not get completely overmatched in that regards.

Oh, I should trust my first instincts, I guess...

Marcel Cerdan W-15 **** Tiger in a close one.

[Kid Achilles]

I was thinking of that when you talked about Tiger's strength. You made the point of how few middleweights in history could really stand a chance in a shootout with Tiger but if anyone could hold his own it was Cerdan. Tremendous strength and really vicious punching on the inside coupled with great athleticism and physical and mental toughness and grit. Fighting one handed against one of the greatest pressure fighters ever in LaMotta? That guy really had it all and shot the theory that the french can't fight between the eyes. I love watching footage of Cerdan.

I couldn't even hope to guess how a fight with them would go. I think with such evenly matched well conditioned all time great middleweights, both aggresive and both with victory, not survival, on the mind, you'd have one of the greatest wars of all time.

There would be many winners in this fight. Every man and woman who would see it.