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Joe Louis vs Dwight Qawi

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  • Joe Louis vs Dwight Qawi

    Qawi could have fought as a heavyweight in Louis day. If Louis defends the crown against Qawi rather than Conn in 1941, does Louis leave the ring as champion?

  • #2
    Originally posted by uncle ben View Post
    Qawi could have fought as a heavyweight in Louis day. If Louis defends the crown against Qawi rather than Conn in 1941, does Louis leave the ring as champion?
    No he wouldn't. He'd leave the ring as a murderer.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by TonyGe View Post
      No he wouldn't. He'd leave the ring as a murderer.
      That's harsh. Qawi would have been a top rated heavyweight contender in 1941

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TonyGe View Post
        No he wouldn't. He'd leave the ring as a murderer.
        Exactly my thought, don't think you could pick a worse matchup outside of Foreman for Qawi

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TonyGe View Post
          No he wouldn't. He'd leave the ring as a murderer.
          Originally posted by NChristo- View Post
          Exactly my thought, don't think you could pick a worse matchup outside of Foreman for Qawi
          Come on guys... you have a cruiserweight who comes straight in, and loves to trade, trading with perhaps the premier puncher of the sport... and one of the best punchers, in any division ever... what could possibly go wrong?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by uncle ben View Post
            That's harsh. Qawi would have been a top rated heavyweight contender in 1941
            No... Qawi was a great talent, much like an improved Gatti, but did you ever think to consider the darth of heavyweights at that time, who just come in and brawl? Galento was good enough to get away with it and IMO he was chronically underated. While Louis fought in a division that was not considered one of the historically stronger, guys had skills and no one was getting through brawling, unless they had heavyweight power.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
              Come on guys... you have a cruiserweight who comes straight in, and loves to trade, trading with perhaps the premier puncher of the sport... and one of the best punchers, in any division ever... what could possibly go wrong?
              I'd take Louis but I don't think ya'll give Qawi enough credit for his defense. He didn't recklessly come straight in, he was a great counter puncher (especially with his jab) and had sneaky head movement. Look at how many shots he slipped/blocked vs Holyfield in the first fight, how he was making a fool of Leon Spinks (slipping, countering and taunting) and those are only a few. Also, I don't think weight is that much of a factor, especially when you consider all of the opponents weighing even less than Qawi (cruiserweight version) that gave Louis trouble. The average size of heavyweights was much less back then, I agree with the person that said Qawi would be a legit, top contender in those days.

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              • #8
                I could see Qawi giving Louis a hard time, possibly even dropping him early before being taken out himself, somewhere in the late rounds.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by TonyGe View Post
                  No he wouldn't. He'd leave the ring as a murderer.
                  Funny. And true. I am no Louis cheerleader, but he would mangle ersatz Moslem Braxton.

                  Could Braxton even whip a leery Ray Robby?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by slicksouthpaw16 View Post
                    I'd take Louis but I don't think ya'll give Qawi enough credit for his defense. He didn't recklessly come straight in, he was a great counter puncher (especially with his jab) and had sneaky head movement. Look at how many shots he slipped/blocked vs Holyfield in the first fight, how he was making a fool of Leon Spinks (slipping, countering and taunting) and those are only a few. Also, I don't think weight is that much of a factor, especially when you consider all of the opponents weighing even less than Qawi (cruiserweight version) that gave Louis trouble. The average size of heavyweights was much less back then, I agree with the person that said Qawi would be a legit, top contender in those days.
                    Hollyfield was still developing skills as a boxer back then. Both guys really set it up to brawl. Louis could be knocked down for sure, but getting into a firefight with Louis would be a mistake.

                    Also I hope i didn't say "weight" if I did, I misspoke, I like to think I stated the division Qawi fought out of... Its not imo about "weight" per se, its about size in general, something people here often enough have no understanding of... There is more than just weight when it comes to fighting heavyweight.

                    We can argue the details to the cows come home... But the fact is Qawi was not a heavyweight. Louis was a heavyweight.

                    The best analogy I can think of is as follows: If you buy a Ford truck the first model is the F150 the second is the F250... Now, they look very similar! But the towing capacity is really quite different, as the 250 can tow much more. The details why involve a lot of things, not simply weight, things we cannot see, like on the suspension, the gearing ratio on the transmission, etc.

                    Its the same reason why some guys who do not weight a lot can fight heavyweight, others cannot. Qawi never established that he could fight a world class heavyweight and... just looking at the weight of guys in the division is not telling us that he could be able at an earlier time.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by slicksouthpaw16 View Post
                      I could see Qawi giving Louis a hard time, possibly even dropping him early before being taken out himself, somewhere in the late rounds.
                      Well with all we discussed I must say I find this very likely.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
                        Hollyfield was still developing skills as a boxer back then. Both guys really set it up to brawl. Louis could be knocked down for sure, but getting into a firefight with Louis would be a mistake.
                        Holyfield's game plan was to box and move, I heard him say in an in interview that he had a hard time keeping Qawi off of him so he was lured into shootouts for big portions of the fight. In my last post, I was highlighting the fact that Qawis defense even in that fight was criminally underrated. Look at all the shots that he slipped or dodged completely. He's like Duran (to a lesser degree) in a sense that he comes forward, but makes his opponent miss and is actually an excellent counter puncher. I don't think Louis tags him at will.

                        Also I hope i didn't say "weight" if I did, I misspoke, I like to think I stated the division Qawi fought out of... Its not imo about "weight" per se, its about size in general, something people here often enough have no understanding of... There is more than just weight when it comes to fighting heavyweight.

                        We can argue the details to the cows come home... But the fact is Qawi was not a heavyweight. Louis was a heavyweight.

                        The best analogy I can think of is as follows: If you buy a Ford truck the first model is the F150 the second is the F250... Now, they look very similar! But the towing capacity is really quite different, as the 250 can tow much more. The details why involve a lot of things, not simply weight, things we cannot see, like on the suspension, the gearing ratio on the transmission, etc.

                        Its the same reason why some guys who do not weight a lot can fight heavyweight, others cannot. Qawi never established that he could fight a world class heavyweight and... just looking at the weight of guys in the division is not telling us that he could be able at an earlier time.
                        Cruiserweight was not a division in Louis time, which in fact would've make Qawi a heavyweight by default back then. Keep in mind that Louis himself, sometimes weighed in the 190s and even 180s. Max Schmeling was 192 when he knocked Louis out in the first fight. Marciano fought over 90% of his fights in the 180s and even touched the 170s at times. Literally how is this not the same? I'm not talking about post Holyfield 2 heavyweight Qawi here (such as the fat, uninterested one that fought Foreman etc yet still making it to the latter rounds), I'm talking about the Qawi that won the title by KO and went 7-0 before fighting Holyfield. He fought and lost a disputed decision (1st time) vs a peaking Holyfield at his full power while weighing 190. The hardest hitting version of Holyfield, in the best shape and at his quickest. That cruiserweight Holyfield IMO, were the best versions of him that ever existed.

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                        • #13
                          I like Qawi, I could envision a fight where he is winning until he is not. However I see that KO coming by the mid rounds.

                          I get the Conn reference, because it points to the weight difference between more modern times and fights of nearly a century ago, and how a modern cruiser (Qawi) could feasibly matchup with an older heavy (Louis). So I thinks its wrong to dismiss the fight on sheer weight class alone; but Conn was a different fighter than Qawi.

                          Taller than Qawi, slightly longer reach than Qawi, and more lateral in his stick and move style- Conn fought the perfect 'Conn fight' in the first matchup, but still eventually got caught. As an aside, Conn was not as far ahead on the scorecards as many think, and Louis was clearly coming, even if Conn did finish the fight I think he wouldve dropped a decision.

                          Qawi is a favorite of mine, but Louis is the clear favorite here.

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                          • #14
                            Braxton was a Hafey-scale fighter.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by slicksouthpaw16 View Post
                              Holyfield's game plan was to box and move, I heard him say in an in interview that he had a hard time keeping Qawi off of him so he was lured into shootouts for big portions of the fight. In my last post, I was highlighting the fact that Qawis defense even in that fight was criminally underrated. Look at all the shots that he slipped or dodged completely. He's like Duran (to a lesser degree) in a sense that he comes forward, but makes his opponent miss and is actually an excellent counter puncher. I don't think Louis tags him at will.



                              Cruiserweight was not a division in Louis time, which in fact would've make Qawi a heavyweight by default back then. Keep in mind that Louis himself, sometimes weighed in the 190s and even 180s. Max Schmeling was 192 when he knocked Louis out in the first fight. Marciano fought over 90% of his fights in the 180s and even touched the 170s at times. Literally how is this not the same? I'm not talking about post Holyfield 2 heavyweight Qawi here (such as the fat, uninterested one that fought Foreman etc yet still making it to the latter rounds), I'm talking about the Qawi that won the title by KO and went 7-0 before fighting Holyfield. He fought and lost a disputed decision (1st time) vs a peaking Holyfield at his full power while weighing 190. The hardest hitting version of Holyfield, in the best shape and at his quickest. That cruiserweight Holyfield IMO, were the best versions of him that ever existed.
                              I know Qawi was skilled... I agree. There are levels to the game. Louis was hard to slip. Louis did not miss much in his prime.


                              Men weighed less at that time because of many things, among them, they had different training goals. Most of the heavyweights you mention could easily have weighed significantly more if they were training like heavyweights today. Marciano looked fit at over 200 pounds, at least Ali said so, Louis, in his twilight weighed over 200... BUT in order to be active, light on the feet, etc, guys trained to be as light as possible.

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