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I know a lot of people say he;s likely John Gritton. Which is fine, but, where did the name or moniker Bill come from?
A long time ago me and a few friend dug up some sources on the early BK guys.
I have the following:
From A Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence by Capt. John Godfrey 1747
About the Time I first obferved this promising Hero upon the Stage [Jack Broughton], his chief Competitors were PIPES and GRETTING. He beat them both (and I thought with Ease) as often as he fought them. PIPES was the neatest Boxer I remember. He put in his Blows about the Face (which he fought at most) with surprising Time and Judgement. He maintained his Battles for many Years by his extraordinary Skill, against Men of far superior Strength. PIPES was but weakly made ; his Appearance bespoke Activity, but his Hand, Arm, and Body were but small. Though by that acquired Spring of his Arm he hit prodigious Blows ; and I really think, that at last, when he was beat out of his Championship, it was more owing to his Debauchery than the Merit of those who beat him.
GRETTING was a strong Antagonist to PIPES. They contended hard together for some Time, and were almost alternate Victors. GRETTING had the nearest Way of going to the Stomach (which is what they call the Mark) of any Man I knew. He was a most artful Boxer, stronger made than PIPES, and dealt the straightest Blows ; But what made PIPES a Match for him, was his rare Bottom Spirit, which would bear a deal of beating, but this, in my Mind, GRETTING was not sufficiently furnished with ; for after he was beat twice together by PIPES, Hammersmith JACK, a meer Sloven of a Boxer, and every Body that fought him afterwards, beat him. I must, notwithstanding, do that Justice to GRETTING'S Memory, as to own that his Debauchery very much contributed to spoil a great Boxer ; but yet I think he had not the Bottom of the other.
1729-02-19 The Daily Post (London, England) (page 1)
At Mr. FIGG's Great-Room,
At his House, the Sign of the City of Oxford, in Oxford Road, Marybone-Fields, on Tuesday the 25th of February,
WILL be an extraordinary Boxing Match between Mr. Thomas Allen, (commonly known by the name of Pipes,) and the famous Mr. John Gretton, for the whole House and a Hundred Pounds; Mr. Allen (pretending he had not the last Time fair Play) has demanded this second Engagement, which Mr. Gretton (willing to give the utmost Satisfaction, as well to Mr. Allen as to the worthy Spectators) has freely accepted of, and they are both resolv'd that this shall be a Decisive Battle, neither intending to give up the Victory till he shall be convinc'd of the superior Manhood of his Antagonist beyond all future Disputes, which shall be publickly acknowledg'd by the vanquish'd Champion before the honourable Assembly then present.
N. B. The Man that Shews any foul Play, shall lose both Money and the House.
The Doors will be open'd at Two, and the Champions mount the Stage between Four and Five.
There will be the usual Diversion of Cudgel-playing before the Champions mount the Stage.
1729-02-25 The Daily Post (London, England) (page 1)
We are inform'd, that Mr. Allen, well known by the Name of Pipes, was this Day to engage with Mr. Greton, at Mr. Figg's Great Room; but being now indispos'd, desires it may be deferr'd 'till this Day Fortnight, at which Time he hopes to give a general Satisfaction to the honourable Assembly then present.
April 1, 1729 The Daily Post
At Mr. Figg’s Great-Room, At his House, the Sign of the City of Oxford, in Oxford-road, Marybone-Fields, this present Tuesday the 1st Day of April, will be a Trial of Manhood by the Following Champions.
Whereas I Robert Newell, Butcher, having received a great many Affronts from John Paten, the Windsor Bargeman, one in particular when Mr. Gretton and Mr. Allen fought, the latter if which U was Second to, and he to the former; whereupon I give him this Invitation to Box me for Twenty Guineas, fair Fall and Rise, and I doubt not but to give him as warm a Reception as ever he met with, which I hope will will discourage him from engaging any more with me
I John Paten, will not fail meeting this brave Fellow at the Place above-mention’d, where, if he does not perform what he promises, he may expect ever after to be posted for a Coward; and if he thinks fit I’ll fight him for double the Sum.
The Doors will be open’d at Three, and the Champions mount at Five
The Daily Post May 13 1729 (page 1)
At Mr. Stokes’s Amphitheatre, In Islington Road, this present Tuesday the 13th of May, will be a Trial of Manhood by the following Champions.
Whereas I Robert Newel, Butcher, lately fought and vanquish’d John Patten, the famous and strenuous Windsor Bargenan, to the entire satisfaction of the worthy Spectators, and have since been match’d to fight John Whitaker, the celebrated Lincolnshire Drover, who fought and defeated the renowned Italian Boxer, that came over in purpose to try his Manhood with him, and since overcame the noted Mr. Gretton, and Geofry Burch, from Harrow on the Hill; I do hereby challenger him to box me for Fifty Pounds, as the sear of Valour above mention’d, being a Place adapted for such Conflicts. The Conqueror to have the Wagers laid and the Benefit of the House.
I John Whitaker, Lincolnshire Drover, having defeated the abovenamed Boxing Champions, thought to have faredown contented with my Share of Glory, and never more to appear upon a publick Stage; but being challeng’d by his daring Champion, I shall not fail to meet him at the Time and Place above mention’d, where I shall endeavour to give both him and the Company full Satisfaction.
The Doors will be opened at Three, and the Champions mount at Five. There will be the usual Diversion of Cudgel-playing before the Champions mounts.
London Daily Journal June 22, 1730
At Mr. Stokes’s Amphitheatre, in Islington Road, this present Monday, being the 22d Inst. Two Select Trials of Manhood will be shewn in the utmost Perfection, by the four following Proficients in the Art of Boxing, viz.
John Whitacre, the famous Lincolnshire Drover, Thomad Allen, vulgarly called Pipes, James Taylor, Waterman of Hungerford, and Thomas Day of St. James’s: The First renown’d as the extensive Fenns, and look’d upon as the Dimmock of his Country; the second, like the London ‘Prentice, admir’d and fear’d by all that have hitherto engaged him; the Third rides Triton of his Siler Thames; and the Fourth has not a less Share of Bravery than the other Three: So that ‘tis hard to say which will bear away the Bell.
As these Champion are nominated for the surest Cards in the pack, by several Gentlemen who made the Match, there is no Danger of fighting a Crib, as they call it, neither of them knowing whom he is to engage with, till they meet on the Stage, when that Point is to be determined by a Majority of the Audience, which ‘tis expected will be very numerous on the Occasion.
Conditions of the Combate are, Fair Fall, Fair Rise, and those shewing foul Play to be jointly sued according to Law &c.
Note, Some Bye Matches will also be fought, and as good Diversion of Cudgel-Playing, &c. before the Masters mount, as can be desired: And as the whole Entertainment will take up more Time than usual, ‘tis hoped the Company will not lose any Part thereof, but honour the House with their Presence so much the sooner.
Mr Stokes and his Wide being last Wednesday at Mr. Figg’s, in order to receive some Money that was due from Mr. Gill, Mr. Msc Colley, and Mr. Sutton, which they refused to pay, and Mr. Stokes being challeng’d, fought at Staff, and Mrs. Stokes was likewise challeng’d, there having lately arrived in Town four Women on purpose of Fighting, dares the said four Women to come to her Seat of Valour on the above Day, before the Champions mount, and she will fight them Bout and Bout till she or they are defeated.
The Doors will be opened at Three, and the Champions mount at FIve
Daily Journal October 19, 1730
At Mr. Stoke’s Amphitheatre, In Islington Road, this present Monday, being the 19th Instant,
Will be the compleatest Trial of Manhood that has been for some Years past, between the two famous Champoins, John Broughton, who won the Coat and Crest of Liberty the 1st of August last, and Tho. Allen, Pipe-Maker, for several considerable Sums of Money. They fight wet or dry, and he that is not ready to mount the Stage with his Second, at 4 o’cClock, forfeits 10l. so those that intend to have good Places, are desired not to delay their coming. There need to Encomium to recommend those Champion to the Publick, they having an establish’d Character; Pipes, by beating Burch of Harrow on the Hill, and the Lincolnshire Drover, who beat the Italian Boxer. Broughton, by beating Gretton, who has for several Years reign’d Champion.
Attendance will be given at 12 o’Clock, with suitable Accommodation for the Reception of the Quality and others.
1731 May 3 The Daily Post
At Mr. Stokes’s Amphitheatre in Isling road, this present Monday, being the 3d Instant, will be a great Entertainment, viz.
Variety of Bull-Baiting, Bear-baiting, an Ass dress’d with Fire-works, and a Bull dress’d in the like manner.
Two Dogs fight a March first as the famous Hereford hire bull, fairest and nearest his Mark for one Guinea.
A Pair of **** fights for Ten Shillings.
Attendance will be given at Two and the Diversion begin at Five.
And To-morrow, being Tuesday, will be fought the great Boxing Match between the famous Thomas Allen, Pipemaker, and John Broughton, for 100 Guineas. He that does not mount the Stage exactly at Six o’Clock forfeits ten Pounds
1738-05-11 The Derby Mercury (page 4)
Last Friday Night was buried, Thomas Allen, commonly called Pipes, particularly famous for his Art and Bravery in Boxing; He was Gallery Door keeper to Drury-Lane Playhouse; and the Funeral (which was extraordinary decent) was, for his faithful Services, defray'd by his Master. It was remarkable, that his Pall was supported by John Broughton, Nathaniel Peartree, George Taylor, George Stevenson, Benjamin Boswell, and Thomas Dimmack. Six of the most celebrated Boxers that this or perhaps any Age has produced. To see half a Dozen such brave Fellows affectionately and decently attending him to his Grave is an Instance (as in their Scene of Life he was often their Antagonist) of the innate generous Love of Valour for which Englishmen are so justly distinguish'd.
Derby Mercury - Thursday 01 June 1738
TO BE LETT
A very good Brick House, with Outhouses, a good Stable, Garden Wall'd about, and all other Conveniences, situate upon the Nuns-green in Derby, where the late John Gretton liv'd. It is very fit for a Houser, there being a good Workshop for one of that Occupation. Enquire of William Moore, Joyner in St. Mary-Gate, in Derby aforesaid.
Thanks again to Senya for helping.
There's more to add, but I've been stalling for a bit, and sometimes you just to push yourself to post something.
I will note that while it refers to Pipes losing his "Championship", I am not sure that refers to the Championship of England, as it seems is generally thought. Champion used to basically mean fighter, and as you good back this more and more, was the defintion most widely used, especially as it puts them as around the same time as Broughton, and both losing to him. So I think "Championship" may have just mean something like fighting spirit, as from the wording I believe this is referring to it happening after his losses to Broughton.
There is a record of a John Gretton being buried on the 12th of August 1738 in Stafford.
John is mentioned plenty. Gretting and Gretton are used plenty, but Bill isn't a name in any of my source materiel.
There are plenty of things that don't match up with the CBZ record:
1729
Bill Gretting L
Bill Gretting W
1730
-Pipes, a student of James Figg, claimed the Championship of England
following the retirement of Figg; Jack Broughton and George Taylor,
outstanding pupils of Figg, made no claim for the title and Pipes became
generally recognized as the English Champion; Gretting disputed the claim
Bill Gretting L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
Bill Gretting W
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
1732
Bill Gretting L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
1733
Bill Gretting W
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
Bill Gretting W
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
1734
Jack Broughton L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
Jack Broughton L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
But, what is most curious to me isn't really the dates or who was seen as champion so much as where, TF, did Bill come from from? Even if John and Bill are the same guy why does CBZ use Bill and where did they get that name?
A long time ago me and a few friend dug up some sources on the early BK guys.
I have the following:
From A Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence by Capt. John Godfrey 1747
About the Time I first obferved this promising Hero upon the Stage [Jack Broughton], his chief Competitors were PIPES and GRETTING. He beat them both (and I thought with Ease) as often as he fought them. PIPES was the neatest Boxer I remember. He put in his Blows about the Face (which he fought at most) with surprising Time and Judgement. He maintained his Battles for many Years by his extraordinary Skill, against Men of far superior Strength. PIPES was but weakly made ; his Appearance bespoke Activity, but his Hand, Arm, and Body were but small. Though by that acquired Spring of his Arm he hit prodigious Blows ; and I really think, that at last, when he was beat out of his Championship, it was more owing to his Debauchery than the Merit of those who beat him.
GRETTING was a strong Antagonist to PIPES. They contended hard together for some Time, and were almost alternate Victors. GRETTING had the nearest Way of going to the Stomach (which is what they call the Mark) of any Man I knew. He was a most artful Boxer, stronger made than PIPES, and dealt the straightest Blows ; But what made PIPES a Match for him, was his rare Bottom Spirit, which would bear a deal of beating, but this, in my Mind, GRETTING was not sufficiently furnished with ; for after he was beat twice together by PIPES, Hammersmith JACK, a meer Sloven of a Boxer, and every Body that fought him afterwards, beat him. I must, notwithstanding, do that Justice to GRETTING'S Memory, as to own that his Debauchery very much contributed to spoil a great Boxer ; but yet I think he had not the Bottom of the other.
1729-02-19 The Daily Post (London, England) (page 1)
At Mr. FIGG's Great-Room,
At his House, the Sign of the City of Oxford, in Oxford Road, Marybone-Fields, on Tuesday the 25th of February,
WILL be an extraordinary Boxing Match between Mr. Thomas Allen, (commonly known by the name of Pipes,) and the famous Mr. John Gretton, for the whole House and a Hundred Pounds; Mr. Allen (pretending he had not the last Time fair Play) has demanded this second Engagement, which Mr. Gretton (willing to give the utmost Satisfaction, as well to Mr. Allen as to the worthy Spectators) has freely accepted of, and they are both resolv'd that this shall be a Decisive Battle, neither intending to give up the Victory till he shall be convinc'd of the superior Manhood of his Antagonist beyond all future Disputes, which shall be publickly acknowledg'd by the vanquish'd Champion before the honourable Assembly then present.
N. B. The Man that Shews any foul Play, shall lose both Money and the House.
The Doors will be open'd at Two, and the Champions mount the Stage between Four and Five.
There will be the usual Diversion of Cudgel-playing before the Champions mount the Stage.
1729-02-25 The Daily Post (London, England) (page 1)
We are inform'd, that Mr. Allen, well known by the Name of Pipes, was this Day to engage with Mr. Greton, at Mr. Figg's Great Room; but being now indispos'd, desires it may be deferr'd 'till this Day Fortnight, at which Time he hopes to give a general Satisfaction to the honourable Assembly then present.
April 1, 1729 The Daily Post
At Mr. Figg’s Great-Room, At his House, the Sign of the City of Oxford, in Oxford-road, Marybone-Fields, this present Tuesday the 1st Day of April, will be a Trial of Manhood by the Following Champions.
Whereas I Robert Newell, Butcher, having received a great many Affronts from John Paten, the Windsor Bargeman, one in particular when Mr. Gretton and Mr. Allen fought, the latter if which U was Second to, and he to the former; whereupon I give him this Invitation to Box me for Twenty Guineas, fair Fall and Rise, and I doubt not but to give him as warm a Reception as ever he met with, which I hope will will discourage him from engaging any more with me
I John Paten, will not fail meeting this brave Fellow at the Place above-mention’d, where, if he does not perform what he promises, he may expect ever after to be posted for a Coward; and if he thinks fit I’ll fight him for double the Sum.
The Doors will be open’d at Three, and the Champions mount at Five
The Daily Post May 13 1729 (page 1)
At Mr. Stokes’s Amphitheatre, In Islington Road, this present Tuesday the 13th of May, will be a Trial of Manhood by the following Champions.
Whereas I Robert Newel, Butcher, lately fought and vanquish’d John Patten, the famous and strenuous Windsor Bargenan, to the entire satisfaction of the worthy Spectators, and have since been match’d to fight John Whitaker, the celebrated Lincolnshire Drover, who fought and defeated the renowned Italian Boxer, that came over in purpose to try his Manhood with him, and since overcame the noted Mr. Gretton, and Geofry Burch, from Harrow on the Hill; I do hereby challenger him to box me for Fifty Pounds, as the sear of Valour above mention’d, being a Place adapted for such Conflicts. The Conqueror to have the Wagers laid and the Benefit of the House.
I John Whitaker, Lincolnshire Drover, having defeated the abovenamed Boxing Champions, thought to have faredown contented with my Share of Glory, and never more to appear upon a publick Stage; but being challeng’d by his daring Champion, I shall not fail to meet him at the Time and Place above mention’d, where I shall endeavour to give both him and the Company full Satisfaction.
The Doors will be opened at Three, and the Champions mount at Five. There will be the usual Diversion of Cudgel-playing before the Champions mounts.
London Daily Journal June 22, 1730
At Mr. Stokes’s Amphitheatre, in Islington Road, this present Monday, being the 22d Inst. Two Select Trials of Manhood will be shewn in the utmost Perfection, by the four following Proficients in the Art of Boxing, viz.
John Whitacre, the famous Lincolnshire Drover, Thomad Allen, vulgarly called Pipes, James Taylor, Waterman of Hungerford, and Thomas Day of St. James’s: The First renown’d as the extensive Fenns, and look’d upon as the Dimmock of his Country; the second, like the London ‘Prentice, admir’d and fear’d by all that have hitherto engaged him; the Third rides Triton of his Siler Thames; and the Fourth has not a less Share of Bravery than the other Three: So that ‘tis hard to say which will bear away the Bell.
As these Champion are nominated for the surest Cards in the pack, by several Gentlemen who made the Match, there is no Danger of fighting a Crib, as they call it, neither of them knowing whom he is to engage with, till they meet on the Stage, when that Point is to be determined by a Majority of the Audience, which ‘tis expected will be very numerous on the Occasion.
Conditions of the Combate are, Fair Fall, Fair Rise, and those shewing foul Play to be jointly sued according to Law &c.
Note, Some Bye Matches will also be fought, and as good Diversion of Cudgel-Playing, &c. before the Masters mount, as can be desired: And as the whole Entertainment will take up more Time than usual, ‘tis hoped the Company will not lose any Part thereof, but honour the House with their Presence so much the sooner.
Mr Stokes and his Wide being last Wednesday at Mr. Figg’s, in order to receive some Money that was due from Mr. Gill, Mr. Msc Colley, and Mr. Sutton, which they refused to pay, and Mr. Stokes being challeng’d, fought at Staff, and Mrs. Stokes was likewise challeng’d, there having lately arrived in Town four Women on purpose of Fighting, dares the said four Women to come to her Seat of Valour on the above Day, before the Champions mount, and she will fight them Bout and Bout till she or they are defeated.
The Doors will be opened at Three, and the Champions mount at FIve
Daily Journal October 19, 1730
At Mr. Stoke’s Amphitheatre, In Islington Road, this present Monday, being the 19th Instant,
Will be the compleatest Trial of Manhood that has been for some Years past, between the two famous Champoins, John Broughton, who won the Coat and Crest of Liberty the 1st of August last, and Tho. Allen, Pipe-Maker, for several considerable Sums of Money. They fight wet or dry, and he that is not ready to mount the Stage with his Second, at 4 o’cClock, forfeits 10l. so those that intend to have good Places, are desired not to delay their coming. There need to Encomium to recommend those Champion to the Publick, they having an establish’d Character; Pipes, by beating Burch of Harrow on the Hill, and the Lincolnshire Drover, who beat the Italian Boxer. Broughton, by beating Gretton, who has for several Years reign’d Champion.
Attendance will be given at 12 o’Clock, with suitable Accommodation for the Reception of the Quality and others.
1731 May 3 The Daily Post
At Mr. Stokes’s Amphitheatre in Isling road, this present Monday, being the 3d Instant, will be a great Entertainment, viz.
Variety of Bull-Baiting, Bear-baiting, an Ass dress’d with Fire-works, and a Bull dress’d in the like manner.
Two Dogs fight a March first as the famous Hereford hire bull, fairest and nearest his Mark for one Guinea.
A Pair of **** fights for Ten Shillings.
Attendance will be given at Two and the Diversion begin at Five.
And To-morrow, being Tuesday, will be fought the great Boxing Match between the famous Thomas Allen, Pipemaker, and John Broughton, for 100 Guineas. He that does not mount the Stage exactly at Six o’Clock forfeits ten Pounds
1738-05-11 The Derby Mercury (page 4)
Last Friday Night was buried, Thomas Allen, commonly called Pipes, particularly famous for his Art and Bravery in Boxing; He was Gallery Door keeper to Drury-Lane Playhouse; and the Funeral (which was extraordinary decent) was, for his faithful Services, defray'd by his Master. It was remarkable, that his Pall was supported by John Broughton, Nathaniel Peartree, George Taylor, George Stevenson, Benjamin Boswell, and Thomas Dimmack. Six of the most celebrated Boxers that this or perhaps any Age has produced. To see half a Dozen such brave Fellows affectionately and decently attending him to his Grave is an Instance (as in their Scene of Life he was often their Antagonist) of the innate generous Love of Valour for which Englishmen are so justly distinguish'd.
Derby Mercury - Thursday 01 June 1738
TO BE LETT
A very good Brick House, with Outhouses, a good Stable, Garden Wall'd about, and all other Conveniences, situate upon the Nuns-green in Derby, where the late John Gretton liv'd. It is very fit for a Houser, there being a good Workshop for one of that Occupation. Enquire of William Moore, Joyner in St. Mary-Gate, in Derby aforesaid.
Thanks again to Senya for helping.
There's more to add, but I've been stalling for a bit, and sometimes you just to push yourself to post something.
I will note that while it refers to Pipes losing his "Championship", I am not sure that refers to the Championship of England, as it seems is generally thought. Champion used to basically mean fighter, and as you good back this more and more, was the defintion most widely used, especially as it puts them as around the same time as Broughton, and both losing to him. So I think "Championship" may have just mean something like fighting spirit, as from the wording I believe this is referring to it happening after his losses to Broughton.
There is a record of a John Gretton being buried on the 12th of August 1738 in Stafford.
John is mentioned plenty. Gretting and Gretton are used plenty, but Bill isn't a name in any of my source materiel.
There are plenty of things that don't match up with the CBZ record:
1729
Bill Gretting L
Bill Gretting W
1730
-Pipes, a student of James Figg, claimed the Championship of England
following the retirement of Figg; Jack Broughton and George Taylor,
outstanding pupils of Figg, made no claim for the title and Pipes became
generally recognized as the English Champion; Gretting disputed the claim
Bill Gretting L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
Bill Gretting W
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
1732
Bill Gretting L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
1733
Bill Gretting W
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
Bill Gretting W
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
1734
Jack Broughton L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
Jack Broughton L
-Some sources indicate possible Championship of England contest
But, what is most curious to me isn't really the dates or who was seen as champion so much as where, TF, did Bill come from from? Even if John and Bill are the same guy why does CBZ use Bill and where did they get that name?