Bowe v Frazier?

[phallus]

Frazier. maybe even by stoppage. I'm not sure Bowe is a great heavyweight. He's certainly good, but Frazier is great. Frazier would put in that extra effort, and considering Bowes likely willingness to trade inside, its probably goes in Frazier Favor. Bowe gets his shots in im sure, but Joe is incredibly resilient and his work in the championship rounds are some of the best. I think Bowe has heavy shots but not the kind of blows that will put Joe away for good.

In the other factor people often overlook is how good of a puncher Joe was. He was stopping everyone, and even managed to put Ali down as we all know.

If you stood there and let Joe get his shots in he broke you down.

As for Rusty going on about size again, Ramos was 6 ft 4, bugner was 6 ft 5, Mathis is 6 ft 4

as if it matters anyways, Holyfield was what 206 lbs? coming from light heavyweight as well, Joe was training down in weight.

yeah. bowe never hit as hard as foreman, frazier might get stung a couple of times early in the fight but bowe is overrated, he has nothing frazier has to worry about. probably frazier wins a UD because bowe is too ****** to go down, but the past prime frazier that beat ali might even stop bowe. once frazier sees how bowe has no defense at all, he just stands there and eats punches, if this fight goes 15 rounds bowe will have brain damage by the last round. if frazier decided to throw left hooks to the body for, say, the first 5 -6 founds and then start working on the head i think he could stop bowe, at least i could see frazier getting a ref stoppage

[cfang]

yeah. bowe never hit as hard as foreman, frazier might get stung a couple of times early in the fight but bowe is overrated, he has nothing frazier has to worry about. probably frazier wins a UD because bowe is too ****** to go down, but the past prime frazier that beat ali might even stop bowe. once frazier sees how bowe has no defense at all, he just stands there and eats punches, if this fight goes 15 rounds bowe will have brain damage by the last round. if frazier decided to throw left hooks to the body for, say, the first 5 -6 founds and then start working on the head i think he could stop bowe, at least i could see frazier getting a ref stoppage

Joe is a greater fighter but a very long way but h2h there is a worry bowe may do a foreman on him. Holyfiled took tysons shots and older foreman's but bowe decked him a few times. Its possible he keeps on knocking down frazier. However, should this not happen and frazier takes those shots, hed break down bowe i think and win on pts.

[them_apples]

Joe is a greater fighter but a very long way but h2h there is a worry bowe may do a foreman on him. Holyfiled took tysons shots and older foreman's but bowe decked him a few times. Its possible he keeps on knocking down frazier. However, should this not happen and frazier takes those shots, hed break down bowe i think and win on pts.

Aside from Foreman hitting harder and being Stronger than Bowe, we also gotta remember Foreman was pushing Frazier on the shoulders. Bowe wouldn't / couldn't have done that and would have fought inside, toe to toe with Joe. Had Foreman done this Joe might have ate him up.

[Rusty Tromboni]

yeah. bowe never hit as hard as foreman, frazier might get stung a couple of times early in the fight but bowe is overrated, he has nothing frazier has to worry about. probably frazier wins a UD because bowe is too ****** to go down, but the past prime frazier that beat ali might even stop bowe. once frazier sees how bowe has no defense at all, he just stands there and eats punches, if this fight goes 15 rounds bowe will have brain damage by the last round. if frazier decided to throw left hooks to the body for, say, the first 5 -6 founds and then start working on the head i think he could stop bowe, at least i could see frazier getting a ref stoppage

You've been hit by both?

Which one KO'd Holyfield?

Foreman was known for his thudding power. Bowe had sharp power. Foreman was also a slugger, he didn't throw just one punch. Bowe was more about precision. His combinations were beautiful, and so much the reason that Bowe is still loved by many. He didn't really do much with his career, but you can do a beautiful Highlight reel montage from clips of his fights.

if frazier decided to throw left hooks to the body for, say, the first 5 -6 founds and then start working on the head i think he could stop bowe, at least i could see frazier getting a ref stoppage

You mean when he kinda just bobbed and weaved?

That's the whole point,Frazier took a while to heat up. He really needed to find his opponent's rhythym. Not hard against Bowe, but the joints weren't greased while Bowe was already trying to get Frazier out of there.

The styles, tactics, size - they all match poorly for Frazier.

Joe is a greater fighter but a very long way but h2h there is a worry bowe may do a foreman on him. Holyfiled took tysons shots and older foreman's but bowe decked him a few times. Its possible he keeps on knocking down frazier. However, should this not happen and frazier takes those shots, hed break down bowe i think and win on pts.

Yeah, people here are trying to justify Frazier's chances based on him being the greater fighter. (I also think most true fans consider Frazier to be very underrated, while Bowe is very overrated; thus they're overcompensating to serve Frazier's legacy). But greater fighters don't always win. That becomes especially true when there's a disparity in size. Look at the lengths people go to in excusing Robinson's loss to Maxim. Why did Ali win against Patterson? How did Hearns so easily short-circuit Duran? How did Corbett II do what legendary fighters couldn't do against McGovern?

Aside from Foreman hitting harder and being Stronger than Bowe, we also gotta remember Foreman was pushing Frazier on the shoulders. Bowe wouldn't / couldn't have done that and would have fought inside, toe to toe with Joe. Had Foreman done this Joe might have ate him up.

So what mental gymnastics do you employ to explain away Ali hurting Frazier badly in the rematch? Obviously that wasn't a prime Joe Frazier, but Ali wasn't a killer like Bowe, either.

Wanna make this about a prime Joe Frazier? OK, let me save you the trouble. That guy comes in 10 pounds lighter. And he still got backed up by Quarry (30 pounds lighter than Bowe) and had no hopes of putting away Chuvalo or Bonavena.


Comparing Bowe and Foreman is fun. But it's a simple misdirect. No one here is saying Bowe fights like Foreman, or has his chances of blowing out Frazier every time they meet.

Bowe was dangerous inside. He didn't like it when people fought back, which is why I don't dismiss Joe's chances out of hand - I even think his chances improve as the fight progresses. But Bowe was dangerous through out the fight. Holyfield was bigger and had a better chin that Frazier and he still lost 2/3 by trying to trade.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Joe averaged less than 6 rds per fight and had approx 60% 5 rds or less with a number of 1-2 round fights.

In context to Bowe, his size, durability and strength guarantee a late rd fight much like Buster Mathis that Big Dummy may replicate.

[them_apples]

Originally Posted by Rusty_Tromboni
So what mental gymnastics do you employ to explain away Ali hurting Frazier badly in the rematch? Obviously that wasn't a prime Joe Frazier, but Ali wasn't a killer like Bowe, either.

Wanna make this about a prime Joe Frazier? OK, let me save you the trouble. That guy comes in 10 pounds lighter. And he still got backed up by Quarry (30 pounds lighter than Bowe) and had no hopes of putting away Chuvalo or Bonavena.


Comparing Bowe and Foreman is fun. But it's a simple misdirect. No one here is saying Bowe fights like Foreman, or has his chances of blowing out Frazier every time they meet.

Bowe was dangerous inside. He didn't like it when people fought back, which is why I don't dismiss Joe's chances out of hand - I even think his chances improve as the fight progresses. But Bowe was dangerous through out the fight. Holyfield was bigger and had a better chin that Frazier and he still lost 2/3 by trying to trade.

Ali was an accurate puncher, he hurt a lot guys who showed Iron Chins, because he hit them when they didn't see it.

Frazier murdered Quarry, I actually think he gave Quarry brain damage in that fight, he even carried him near the end as to not hurt him. Not sure why you brought up one of the most dominating performances of his career as if it was something of note.

Chuvalo he destroyed as well, he caved his cheek bone in, his eye dropped in the socket, he turned his back in pain and the fight was stopped. Frazier stopped Chuvalo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuwqw7LEibo

You use 2 examples of men Frazier physically hurt badly as if they are some how discrediting him.

Bowe was good inside, I said that, but that's all Joe does. So You know its gonna be inside fighting all night, whos gonna win that? Joe

I always know it's you because of your video game type stats you employ on fighters. there's no way you have any actual boxing experience based on what you say.

Like if Ali can hurt Joe than Bowe can, as if its literally a power vs chin resistance threshold like in a video game. You get hit with a shot you don't see coming and you can't brace for it, much like getting suckered in the gut, 6 pack or not if you aren't flexing its over.

Bowe isn't half as quick or crafty as Ali. He at best would be landing slow heavy shots that Frazier would be ready for. Its where the term knockout artist came from, the art of the sucker punch. how to set someone up for a sucker shot.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Joe averaged less than 6 rds per fight and had approx 60% 5 rds or less with a number of 1-2 round fights.

In context to Bowe, his size, durability and strength guarantee a late rd fight much like Buster Mathis that Big Dummy may replicate.

Mathis wasn't fit to carry Bowe's jockstrap.

Holyfield would have put him away before the 11th. No need for a triology.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Ali was an accurate puncher, he hurt a lot guys who showed Iron Chins, because he hit them when they didn't see it.

So you agree he wasn't a power puncher.

Ali won by attrition. Really, I don't know anyone who disputes this.


I know you like the peddle bizzarro theories, but no one is going to buy the one that Ali hit like Bowe. He's pretty much the antithesis of Bowe - except that both tended to enjoy a size advantage over their respective opponents.

If Ali can badly hurt Joe early, Bowe has the very real potential of wrecking house.

Frazier murdered Quarry, I actually think he gave Quarry brain damage in that fight, he even carried him near the end as to not hurt him. Not sure why you brought up one of the most dominating performances of his career as if it was something of note.

Reading clearly isn't your thing.

Chuvalo he destroyed as well, he caved his cheek bone in, his eye dropped in the socket, he turned his back in pain and the fight was stopped. Frazier stopped Chuvalo



You use 2 examples of men Frazier physically hurt badly as if they are some how discrediting him.

Bowe was good inside, I said that, but that's all Joe does. So You know its gonna be inside fighting all night, whos gonna win that? Joe

this would be the one example of Frazier actually being able to start quick and get the edge before his opponent could mount the offensive.

So yeah, I was wrong about Chuvalo. But Bowe is nothing like Chuvalo.

Bowe has his jab, his uppercut, and combination punching inside.

While it's true he's not Foreman, and he doesn't have Ali's speed that doesn't dismiss his opportunities for catching Frazier early.

Frazier was pretty much done after FOTC. Even if he hadn't met Aliand Foreman, it's questionable how much longer his prime would have continued. He took a lot of shots. We was there to be hit.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Joe averaged less than 6 rds per fight and had approx 60% 5 rds or less with a number of 1-2 round fights.

In context to Bowe, his size, durability and strength guarantee a late rd fight much like Buster Mathis that Big Dummy may replicate.

And if Bowe had fought those guys he wouldn't be talked about as a "What If". We'd be talkingabout him like Dempsey, Foreman, Wilder: one of the greatest champions of Boxing history.

[QueensburyRules]

Mathis wasn't fit to carry Bowe's jockstrap.

Holyfield would have put him away before the 11th. No need for a triology.

- -U wearing Big Dummy jock as a bra...priceless!