Would Mike Tyson have been a better or worse fighter if he used Toney’s style ?

[Dempsey19]

Would Mike Tyson have been a better or worse fighter if he had been a slick, defensive, counter-punching boxer like James Toney (who had similar height and reach) instead of a come-forward brawler-swarmer ?

[PRINCEKOOL]

Mike Tyson at his peak had a comparable defense to James Toney 'In terms of effectiveness'. Tyson was not entirely a brawler/swarmer 100%, he was also a counter puncher.

I don't really think a shoulder roll or that type of Toney/Mayweather type defense would of improved Mike Tyson. 'Fighters who use that style are ether really tall fighters or fighters who's defenses are not as destructive'.

[ShoulderRoll]

His career probably would have lasted longer if he had been trained as a child by, say, Bill Miller.

That style is more efficient and conserves more energy than the peekaboo.

Having said that I think he had the perfect mix of defense and offense and was ideally built for the Cus D'Amato style. It's just very energy-intensive and not conducive to longevity.

[BKM-]

It would have been a complete waste of his physical attributes and he would have been a weak fighter.

A great trainer looks at a fighter's body type and physical abilities and then comes up with the right fighting style for him.

Cus trained a lot of kids with his boxing style and very few of them ever became anything.

[PRINCEKOOL]

It would have been a complete waste of his physical attributes and he would have been a weak fighter.

A great trainer looks at a fighter's body type and physical abilities and then comes up with the right fighting style for him.

Cus trained a lot of kids with his boxing style and very few of them ever became anything.

Good Post.

In my opinion? I actually think Mike Tyson's defense at his peak, and even in his decline was great 'It was comparable to Toney's in its effectiveness' In 90% of his fights even in the later part of his career, Tyson was never easy to hit. Mike Tyson's could invade punches moving forward at matrix type levels of speed 'At the same time calculating/launching offensive attacks' There has been no fighter who has duplicated this style so well since Mike Tyson.

James Toney's movement was also not on par with his other attributes. Mike Tyson had by far superior movement, very dynamic on his feet.

Not sure why people are trying to make out that James Toney was untouchable defensively 'Great defense, but not the greatest'.

[billeau2]

Charlie Goldman

There once was a ***ish boxing trainer who was a bit of a broken arrow. Sure enough one day this Itralian kid...he walks in you see? except its more like he idles in see? Because this kid has two left feet, stumps for arms and aint none too big neither...

Well Charlie gets to looking and notices that this kid can hit and hit like a freakin freight train see? So Charlie pulls the kid aside...Like doctor Frankenstein he goes to work, xept Charlie don't want that bad Frankenstein brain see? So he decides that what hes gonna do is embrace this kid's faults...It so happened that Charlie was into time travel and had gone off to a 60's Gumbaya convention. This Itralian Murican kid with two left feet...even a one legged man in an @33 kickin contest has only one bum leg, see? this kid with stumps fer arms...and all yeah Charlie was gonna make it work the way the kid saw it see?

And that is how Marciano was crafted. The reason there are very intelligent boxing people here who say the Rock was one in ten generations is because the work ethic, the will, the ability to learn to do things different and make them work against the masters...for it to come together like that is a miracle. Marchigiano realizes this and puts the Rock up there with champions from the ages, and following his logic I tend to agree.

My point is that Charlie laid down the blueprint. A fighter learns how to fight based on what their gifts are. What makes them able is an initial ability to grasp the basics, the fundamentals. But then, they have to take that and meld it into their way.

Toney studied Archie Moore, and developed his gifts according to his talents. Tyson was also a student of the game. He favored Dempsey.

[billeau2]

Mike Tyson at his peak had a comparable defense to James Toney 'In terms of effectiveness'. Tyson was not entirely a brawler/swarmer 100%, he was also a counter puncher.

I don't really think a shoulder roll or that type of Toney/Mayweather type defense would of improved Mike Tyson. 'Fighters who use that style are ether really tall fighters or fighters who's defenses are not as destructive'.

Tyson looked at Defense as something achieved with head movements. One sign that Tyson had lost a step against the B@st@rd maker was his lack of head movement. You walked in and through the area where the punch was supposed to land on you by moving the target. As one does this movement the shoulder also shifts and eventually one can actually punch in one fluid movement as they evade the punch. With Dempsey and Tyson its like dealing with the cut of a sword: you never try to evade, you reposition to continue the attack. So there is no real defense versus offense in this way of fighting.

Toney uses the shoulder roll to step away without pivoting the feet. This allows him to twist back and then twist forward as he punches. When done properly this counter can catch the guy from all kinds of weird angles.

One big difference is Tyson's movement comes from the head and shoulders, while Toney's comes from the shoulders and torso.

[QueensburyRules]

Would Mike Tyson have been a better or worse fighter if he had been a slick, defensive, counter-punching boxer like James Toney (who had similar height and reach) instead of a come-forward brawler-swarmer ?

- -He'd be as dumb as you.

...next...

[Anthony342]

There once was a ***ish boxing trainer who was a bit of a broken arrow. Sure enough one day this Itralian kid...he walks in you see? except its more like he idles in see? Because this kid has two left feet, stumps for arms and aint none too big neither...

Well Charlie gets to looking and notices that this kid can hit and hit like a freakin freight train see? So Charlie pulls the kid aside...Like doctor Frankenstein he goes to work, xept Charlie don't want that bad Frankenstein brain see? So he decides that what hes gonna do is embrace this kid's faults...It so happened that Charlie was into time travel and had gone off to a 60's Gumbaya convention. This Itralian Murican kid with two left feet...even a one legged man in an @33 kickin contest has only one bum leg, see? this kid with stumps fer arms...and all yeah Charlie was gonna make it work the way the kid saw it see?

And that is how Marciano was crafted. The reason there are very intelligent boxing people here who say the Rock was one in ten generations is because the work ethic, the will, the ability to learn to do things different and make them work against the masters...for it to come together like that is a miracle. Marchigiano realizes this and puts the Rock up there with champions from the ages, and following his logic I tend to agree.

My point is that Charlie laid down the blueprint. A fighter learns how to fight based on what their gifts are. What makes them able is an initial ability to grasp the basics, the fundamentals. But then, they have to take that and meld it into their way.

Toney studied Archie Moore, and developed his gifts according to his talents. Tyson was also a student of the game. He favored Dempsey.

A freight train is a good description of the original Rock's punching power, before the nickname was even used in wrestling by Rocky Johnson or Don Muraco. Have you seen either of the Rocky Marciano TV movies, one called Marciano with Tony Lo Bianco and the other Rocky Marciano with Jon Favreau, which Lo Bianco is also in. Your post just reminded me of the Favreau version from 1996 where Goldman is asked by Al Weill how good Rocky is and after mentioning his shortcomings says that he has "a punch like a fallen safe. If I were you, I'd sign him immediately."

[Dempsey19]

There once was a ***ish boxing trainer who was a bit of a broken arrow. Sure enough one day this Itralian kid...he walks in you see? except its more like he idles in see? Because this kid has two left feet, stumps for arms and aint none too big neither...

Well Charlie gets to looking and notices that this kid can hit and hit like a freakin freight train see? So Charlie pulls the kid aside...Like doctor Frankenstein he goes to work, xept Charlie don't want that bad Frankenstein brain see? So he decides that what hes gonna do is embrace this kid's faults...It so happened that Charlie was into time travel and had gone off to a 60's Gumbaya convention. This Itralian Murican kid with two left feet...even a one legged man in an @33 kickin contest has only one bum leg, see? this kid with stumps fer arms...and all yeah Charlie was gonna make it work the way the kid saw it see?

And that is how Marciano was crafted. The reason there are very intelligent boxing people here who say the Rock was one in ten generations is because the work ethic, the will, the ability to learn to do things different and make them work against the masters...for it to come together like that is a miracle. Marchigiano realizes this and puts the Rock up there with champions from the ages, and following his logic I tend to agree.

My point is that Charlie laid down the blueprint. A fighter learns how to fight based on what their gifts are. What makes them able is an initial ability to grasp the basics, the fundamentals. But then, they have to take that and meld it into their way.

Toney studied Archie Moore, and developed his gifts according to his talents. Tyson was also a student of the game. He favored Dempsey.

A freight train is a good description of the original Rock's punching power, before the nickname was even used in wrestling by Rocky Johnson or Don Muraco. Have you seen either of the Rocky Marciano TV movies, one called Marciano with Tony Lo Bianco and the other Rocky Marciano with Jon Favreau, which Lo Bianco is also in. Your post just reminded me of the Favreau version from 1996 where Goldman is asked by Al Weill how good Rocky is and after mentioning his shortcomings says that he has "a punch like a fallen safe. If I were you, I'd sign him immediately."

Aye, Rocky was a true full-sized superheavyweight crammed into a 178-190 pound frame.