Why is there no fight footage of Harry Greb?

[jack p]

Dont paint my quote as misinformation. If anyone is misinformed its you. Refute anything I said with actual facts. You cant. Its a plain and simple fact that Jack Dempsey actively avoided Wills. Period. You can pretend his motivations were this or that but when he states he'd meet the winner of Fulton-Wills and then signs to fight the ill, comebacking Billy Miske the day after Wills knocks out Fulton and crushes three of his ribs in the process dont tell me he was fighting the best he could. When he then fights Bill Brennan, who had failed to beat Greb or Miske in six consecutive fights the previous year and had faced no threatening competition since then and who also had, not coincidentally, been stopped by Dempsey two years earlier, it was a step back not forward. Does anyone doubt that the six foot two inch 220lb Wills wouldnt have crushed the 168lb overrated Carpentier? After Carpentier was the aforementioned fake contract used to keep Dempsey from being stripped (the first of two times they used that ruse). Then he sits out for two years and faced Tommy Gibbons. Why? There were two eliminations held in 1922 for Dempsey: The first was Harry Wills-Kid Norfolk. Wills knocked Norfolk out in 2 rounds. Norfolk was Brennan's chief sparring partner for Dempsey and the press said he handled Brennan easier than Dempsey (who struggled mightily with Brennan). They advised Dempsey to steer clear of Norfolk. Wills smashed him easily. Like a bug. The other elimination was Greb-Gibbons. Greb dominated Gibbons and beat him easily. The press were unanimous that Greb had exposed Gibbons as poor challenger for Dempsey. So of the top two contenders, one white and one black. Did Dempsey choose either? No. So Tommy Gibbons got his title shot by losing his elimination bout. Sound like a champion looking for the toughest fights? Next Dempsey fought Firpo. Firpo was very vocal about the fact that he didnt think he was ready for Dempsey. That he wanted more time. He stated that Wills should get first shot. Understanding that the opportunity and such a payday may never come again he took the shot. He went life and death with Dempsey dropping him three times, once knocking him out of the ring, before being stopped in the second. Dempsey didnt fight again for three years and never again defended his title successfully. Sorry, but Dempsey wasnt the fearless mankiller he is painted as his legend. He was a media hyped, protected fighter who people built a myth around and realized that the revenue he generated was so great that he had to be kept from people who would threaten that. Sorry but thats not sports. Thats professional wrestling. Go back and look at his run up to the title and see how the various fights that were suspected to be fixed at the time of his in order to build his reputation. Go back and examine his opponents and you will see he wasnt that impressive. He wasnt going anywhere near Wills and Kearns, who had briefly managed Wills years earlier and knew exactly what he was capable of wasnt going to let him either. Had they really been that confident that Dempsey would defeat Wills they would have signed on the dotted line, knocked him out quick and easy like his deluded fans think he would have, and in one fell swoop they would have gained the biggest payday of Dempsey's career by far, put to bed the myth of Wills, and upheld the supposed honor of the white race in the supposed racist America of the day. Nobody would have ever said another word about it. But they knew that beating Wills wasnt a given and they also knew better than you or I that Wills had massive support among both whites and blacks and that racism was just one excuse to pluck from the multitude they constantly came up with for not defending against Dempsey's top challenger.

Dempsey was the central figure
in the nations largest sport holding a title with huge earning potential. Just like anything with huge earning potential.
The potential for being ruined financially as a promoter was great,
Dempsey Wills and their managers did not create the nations racial problems, They were caught up in it like everyone else..Big Fights back then were massive undertakings absolutely no room for failure
A century ago large capacity stadiums that were around were for field sports,
Not watching a boxing match a quarter mile away. Those had yet to be built. Often they had to be built for one event which meant acquiring acres of land
Property rights. Yet close enough to a big city to be accessible, That means local officials as well as state governors had to sign off.If anyone balked the event could be canceled.
Rickard almost lost thousands upon thousands of his and his investors dollars when California canceled the Jeffries Johnson fight.
If Reno would not have stepped up that fight would never have happened, Big as boxing had become Rickard and his investors were still at the mercy of politics.. Remember Johnson Jeffries led to the most large scale rioting the country had ever seen until Martin Luther King was killed,
There was a lot at stake To much money to lose , Even potential jail time for anyone backing the fight if something went wrong
\When Dempsey and Wills signed their first contract. Firpo arrived in the US and began upstaging Wills with a string of knockouts. When Dempsey signed to fight Firpo
Wills sued again insisting he was the rightful challenger
But Dempsey Firpo was held anyway, Wills was not without money and popularity,.. But suing a championship fight into existence that has has no promoter. Thats what your trying to say . Is that it was up to Dempsey. The thing is there were other contenders but Wills choose not to fight them while victory over them would have increased Wills chances by being the only logical contender
Dempsey was served hundreds of summons by process servers in his active years. Not showing up in court automatically a judgement is against you. Yes Dempsey could have pushed for it but there was a lot at stake politically no promoter wanted it having a fight in a different country wont stop the riots and lynchings ..Wanting to promote a championship fight and actually pulling it off successfully are two different things. Greb for all his fighting never made the big money fights he should have

[billeau2]

Klompton started out as a big Dempsey fan but through years of research for his book he started to separate reality from myth.

He's read countless primary sources from that period so his opinion holds quite lot of weight fight.

Seems to me like most everybody else here is just arguing out of emotion with nowhere near the same amount of evidence to support their points as Klompton has.

Disagree with you...Not saying some argue out of emotion either, but your forsaking the fact that there are other historians who researched this, and came to a different conclusion.

Also, because of when Dempsey fought there were boxing men alive who had seen (depending on their age) jack Johnson up through to Mike Tyson. And they did not agree with the conclusions drawn.

I don't want to belittle the attitude of klompton, I certainly do not belittle his research... but try writing a thesis on a subject and being grilled by an expert who does not agree with you and is there to get at another expert, by destroying you. Maybe the people you asked on your committee to help you will be there, maybe not... Its an act of intimidation, pulling rank, and belittling someone because they can...And that other expert on your committee? he may decide its not worth a conflict and turn on you... It has happened to friends.

I mention this because fvk anyone who thinks that is a valid way to make a point. That 5h1t does not work on some of us. The fact is, really the way Ghost and Rusty state it. There is a valid difference of opinion over the issue of how good Dempsey was, and how much he ceded to other interests.

And wouldn't you know it? the same kind of thing can be said for other great fighters like Jack Johnson. Who did he fight that was any good? wa wa! When he beat this guy he threw an elbow wa wa? And he beat this guy because (then proceeds to go through each fight Johnson won). And and and...He deprived other men of color the chance he had wa wa!!

Well I am here to say this: And I respect virtually every one on this thread so bare that in mind. If you KNOW what to look for from a combat perspective, if you TALK to people who likewise are looking for certain things.... Jack Johnson and Dempsey, are great fighters for a reason. Most fighters today could not do a tenth of what JJ could do in the ring... The man could virtually catch punches in the air, and counter them as fast, grapple as well as most professional MMA, and olympic Judo players (though he did get taught a lesson from a judo player once lol), could set traps all day, punch with tremendous biomechanical efficiency, and use footwork and angles etc.

Dempsey? Hell he wrote his own book even before Klompton! telling people how he did what he did. That book remains a tome for those in the know. That book would serve a chinese Hsin Yi practicioner as well as a boxer. the book describes universal elements of generating effective punches and technique.

Dempsey knew what he was doing, and was a great fighter. Many of us feel as though Wills was not a great fighter. It is a valid opinion. So no, its not people with a grudge, or an axe to grind. Actually most of the posts in the debate have been thoughtful.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Seems obvious after all is said and done that Wills and Greb ducked each other.

See my book to be: Harry & Harry Never Parried...only in boxing!

[ShoulderRoll]

Disagree with you...Not saying some argue out of emotion either, but your forsaking the fact that there are other historians who researched this, and came to a different conclusion.

Also, because of when Dempsey fought there were boxing men alive who had seen (depending on their age) jack Johnson up through to Mike Tyson. And they did not agree with the conclusions drawn.

I don't want to belittle the attitude of klompton, I certainly do not belittle his research... but try writing a thesis on a subject and being grilled by an expert who does not agree with you and is there to get at another expert, by destroying you. Maybe the people you asked on your committee to help you will be there, maybe not... Its an act of intimidation, pulling rank, and belittling someone because they can...And that other expert on your committee? he may decide its not worth a conflict and turn on you... It has happened to friends.

I mention this because fvk anyone who thinks that is a valid way to make a point. That 5h1t does not work on some of us. The fact is, really the way Ghost and Rusty state it. There is a valid difference of opinion over the issue of how good Dempsey was, and how much he ceded to other interests.

And wouldn't you know it? the same kind of thing can be said for other great fighters like Jack Johnson. Who did he fight that was any good? wa wa! When he beat this guy he threw an elbow wa wa? And he beat this guy because (then proceeds to go through each fight Johnson won). And and and...He deprived other men of color the chance he had wa wa!!

Well I am here to say this: And I respect virtually every one on this thread so bare that in mind. If you KNOW what to look for from a combat perspective, if you TALK to people who likewise are looking for certain things.... Jack Johnson and Dempsey, are great fighters for a reason. Most fighters today could not do a tenth of what JJ could do in the ring... The man could virtually catch punches in the air, and counter them as fast, grapple as well as most professional MMA, and olympic Judo players (though he did get taught a lesson from a judo player once lol), could set traps all day, punch with tremendous biomechanical efficiency, and use footwork and angles etc.

Dempsey? Hell he wrote his own book even before Klompton! telling people how he did what he did. That book remains a tome for those in the know. That book would serve a chinese Hsin Yi practicioner as well as a boxer. the book describes universal elements of generating effective punches and technique.

Dempsey knew what he was doing, and was a great fighter. Many of us feel as though Wills was not a great fighter. It is a valid opinion. So no, its not people with a grudge, or an axe to grind. Actually most of the posts in the debate have been thoughtful.

You and I get along, billeau2. And I'm a huge fan of Dempsey's book.

But Rusty and Queenie don't have the intellectual firepower to hang with Klompton's 12 years of research. They're arguing out of hero worship not out of having pored through countless newspaper articles from the period.

And let's be frank. With those two race seems to be a huge motivator for what opinions they choose to have. I've seen comments about Ezzard Charles being overrated and not really that good for instance. Which is silly enough on its own...yet the same posters will then up the ante on silly by using him as an example of a top win for Marciano.

There's too much bullshit like that going on here lately which is a shame. This section of the forum used to be sort of sacrosanct and kept troll free.

[billeau2]

You and I get along, billeau2. And I'm a huge fan of Dempsey's book.

But Rusty and Queenie don't have the intellectual firepower to hang with Klompton's 12 years of research. They're arguing out of hero worship not out of having pored through countless newspaper articles from the period.

And let's be frank. With those two race seems to be a huge motivator for what opinions they choose to have. I've seen comments about Ezzard Charles being overrated and not really that good for instance. Which is silly enough on its own...yet the same posters will then up the ante on silly by using him as an example of a top win for Marciano.

There's too much bullshit like that going on here lately which is a shame. This section of the forum used to be sort of sacrosanct and kept troll free.

I think there have been some very good posts on this thread. Unless i know a poster well enough, like you, where we share a general view on government actions and the motivations behind them, I tend to judge post by post.

i do respect your concerns, as I respect you and regardless of individuals who may, or may not be involved, there are times when this section gets riff raff.

[QueensburyRules]

But Rusty and Queenie don't have the intellectual firepower to hang with Klompton's 12 years of research. They're arguing out of hero worship not out of having pored through countless newspaper articles from the period.

And let's be frank. With those two race seems to be a huge motivator for what opinions they choose to have. I've seen comments about Ezzard Charles being overrated and not really that good for instance.

- -Yer welcome to scrounge up anything negative I said about Ez, a top shelf p4per.

Beats Greb and gives Jack a run for his money.

I suspect you'll be pulling it out of yer nether region like most of yer ill considered posts.

[travestyny]

D But suing a championship fight into existence that has has no promoter. Thats what your trying to say . Is that it was up to Dempsey. The thing is there were other contenders but Wills choose not to fight them while victory over them would have increased Wills chances by being the only logical contender
Dempsey was served hundreds of summons by process servers in his active years. Not showing up in court automatically a judgement is against you. Yes Dempsey could have pushed for it but there was a lot at stake politically no promoter wanted it having a fight in a different country wont stop the riots and lynchings ..Wanting to promote a championship fight and actually pulling it off successfully are two different things. Greb for all his fighting never made the big money fights he should have

But here is the truth.

There was a promoter. The promoter that was willing to put the fight on was the Chicago Coliseum Club. It was an excuse that there wasn't a promoter.


There was a promoter, there was a contract, there was a court case in which Dempsey DID show up, and though he lies and says he won, he in fact lost the case. The reason he considers it a victory is that he was only found liable for miniscule damages because the court found that it was impossible to say how much the Wills/Dempsey fight would have drawn. Also, the court issued an injunction barring Dempsey from fighting anyone besides Wills, but Dempsey got around it. Dempsey tried to take Tunney to NY, but NY told him that he had to stop ducking Wills and fight him, too. So finally he took Tunney to Philly.

That's the honest truth about it. It's all well documented and I can provide you the undeniable facts if you need.

And of course Wills thought he was the rightful challenger. He had been waiting for his shot for years. And Dempsey had the nerve to claim that Wills was the ONLY man that he wanted to fight since becoming champion. He clearly didn't want this fight if he signed a valid contract, the money was present, and he bailed.

[QueensburyRules]

Dempsey was the central figure
in the nations largest sport holding a title with huge earning potential. Just like anything with huge earning potential.
The potential for being ruined financially as a promoter was great,
Dempsey Wills and their managers did not create the nations racial problems, They were caught up in it like everyone else..Big Fights back then were massive undertakings absolutely no room for failure
A century ago large capacity stadiums that were around were for field sports,
Not watching a boxing match a quarter mile away. Those had yet to be built. Often they had to be built for one event which meant acquiring acres of land
Property rights. Yet close enough to a big city to be accessible, That means local officials as well as state governors had to sign off.If anyone balked the event could be canceled.
Rickard almost lost thousands upon thousands of his and his investors dollars when California canceled the Jeffries Johnson fight.
If Reno would not have stepped up that fight would never have happened, Big as boxing had become Rickard and his investors were still at the mercy of politics.. Remember Johnson Jeffries led to the most large scale rioting the country had ever seen until Martin Luther King was killed,
There was a lot at stake To much money to lose , Even potential jail time for anyone backing the fight if something went wrong
\When Dempsey and Wills signed their first contract. Firpo arrived in the US and began upstaging Wills with a string of knockouts. When Dempsey signed to fight Firpo
Wills sued again insisting he was the rightful challenger
But Dempsey Firpo was held anyway, Wills was not without money and popularity,.. But suing a championship fight into existence that has has no promoter. Thats what your trying to say . Is that it was up to Dempsey. The thing is there were other contenders but Wills choose not to fight them while victory over them would have increased Wills chances by being the only logical contender
Dempsey was served hundreds of summons by process servers in his active years. Not showing up in court automatically a judgement is against you. Yes Dempsey could have pushed for it but there was a lot at stake politically no promoter wanted it having a fight in a different country wont stop the riots and lynchings ..Wanting to promote a championship fight and actually pulling it off successfully are two different things. Greb for all his fighting never made the big money fights he should have

- -Some good points by an up and comer.

[travestyny]

Disagree with you...Not saying some argue out of emotion either, but your forsaking the fact that there are other historians who researched this, and came to a different conclusion.

Also, because of when Dempsey fought there were boxing men alive who had seen (depending on their age) jack Johnson up through to Mike Tyson. And they did not agree with the conclusions drawn.

I don't want to belittle the attitude of klompton, I certainly do not belittle his research... but try writing a thesis on a subject and being grilled by an expert who does not agree with you and is there to get at another expert, by destroying you. Maybe the people you asked on your committee to help you will be there, maybe not... Its an act of intimidation, pulling rank, and belittling someone because they can...And that other expert on your committee? he may decide its not worth a conflict and turn on you... It has happened to friends.

I mention this because fvk anyone who thinks that is a valid way to make a point. That 5h1t does not work on some of us. The fact is, really the way Ghost and Rusty state it. There is a valid difference of opinion over the issue of how good Dempsey was, and how much he ceded to other interests.

And wouldn't you know it? the same kind of thing can be said for other great fighters like Jack Johnson. Who did he fight that was any good? wa wa! When he beat this guy he threw an elbow wa wa? And he beat this guy because (then proceeds to go through each fight Johnson won). And and and...He deprived other men of color the chance he had wa wa!!

Well I am here to say this: And I respect virtually every one on this thread so bare that in mind. If you KNOW what to look for from a combat perspective, if you TALK to people who likewise are looking for certain things.... Jack Johnson and Dempsey, are great fighters for a reason. Most fighters today could not do a tenth of what JJ could do in the ring... The man could virtually catch punches in the air, and counter them as fast, grapple as well as most professional MMA, and olympic Judo players (though he did get taught a lesson from a judo player once lol), could set traps all day, punch with tremendous biomechanical efficiency, and use footwork and angles etc.

Dempsey? Hell he wrote his own book even before Klompton! telling people how he did what he did. That book remains a tome for those in the know. That book would serve a chinese Hsin Yi practicioner as well as a boxer. the book describes universal elements of generating effective punches and technique.

Dempsey knew what he was doing, and was a great fighter. Many of us feel as though Wills was not a great fighter. It is a valid opinion. So no, its not people with a grudge, or an axe to grind. Actually most of the posts in the debate have been thoughtful.

Honestly, I think your opinion on the matter is a bit different from the topic.

It seems you are giving your opinion about who would have won the match, but the discussion seems to be about whether Dempsey avoided the fight.

I know some have tried to say that they believe Dempsey would have won, so why would he have avoided the fight, but it certainly doesn't work that way.

For me, the bottom line is this. No one put a gun to Dempsey's head and told him to sign the contract for Wills. He even admits that he accepted $10 to bind him to the contract. The contract clearly stated when the first payment would be made. Dempsey broke the contract BEFORE that date even arrived. When the date did in fact arrive, the money was proven to be there waiting, exactly as the contract stipulated. And exactly as Dempsey agreed to.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how any fighter gets around signing a contract that says what is to happen, the contract is honored exactly, and the fighter pulls out claiming there was no contract, when a court of law literally said "it is inconceivable how Dempsey could have thought there was no contract when the details are made perfectly clear and his signature appears on the dotted line, along with him accepting $10 in consideration to bind him to the contract.

Any other fighter does this, it's a duck. I don't see why it's any different for Dempsey. The public wanted it. Wills wanted it. The promoter wanted it. Dempsey backed out.

[QueensburyRules]

Honestly, I think your opinion on the matter is a bit different from the topic.

It seems you are giving your opinion about who would have won the match, but the discussion seems to be about whether Dempsey avoided the fight.

I know some have tried to say that they believe Dempsey would have won, so why would he have avoided the fight, but it certainly doesn't work that way.

For me, the bottom line is this. No one put a gun to Dempsey's head and told him to sign the contract for Wills. He even admits that he accepted $10 to bind him to the contract. The contract clearly stated when the first payment would be made. Dempsey broke the contract BEFORE that date even arrived. When the date did in fact arrive, the money was proven to be there waiting, exactly as the contract stipulated. And exactly as Dempsey agreed to.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how any fighter gets around signing a contract that says what is to happen, the contract is honored exactly, and the fighter pulls out claiming there was no contract, when a court of law literally said "it is inconceivable how Dempsey could have thought there was no contract when the details are made perfectly clear and his signature appears on the dotted line, along with him accepting $10 in consideration to bind him to the contract.

Any other fighter does this, it's a duck. I don't see why it's any different for Dempsey. The public wanted it. Wills wanted it. The promoter wanted it. Dempsey backed out.

- -You ain't the court of Law.

The Law prevented the fight as you have so amply provided.

End of save yer incessant moaning.

Why did Harry duck the other Harry?

We wanna know!