Lets talk about Charlie Goldman

[billeau2]

When we mention some of the better trainers... Goldman was epic. From the ***ish migration of very tough SOB's, who taught such protege as Al Capone (Yes Capone came from New York and was laced by the ***ish Gangs who welcomed him and Lucky Luciano).


When we talk about Louis' trainer, another lightweight...Literally!! a Lightweight fighter, Jack BlackBurn, We talk about a man who through body mechanics, first brought to bare in the heavyweight division by Jack Dempsey, the classical form of punching in set combos according to anatomical principles that could be trained... almost like a martial arts kata.

he took and rebuilt Louis, who was, believe it or not, fleet of foot, but yet to become the great fighter he was to become. Don't believe me watch old tapes.

Sam, believed that one should accentuate a fighters natural talents, which makes sense... I mean who doesn't right? Lol. But Sam put his ,Draidel where his mouth is... Fighters trained like Al McCoy already had unorthodox style points developed by Goldman. Lou Amber was another fighter trained by Goldman. Again, an excellent fighter who fought bouts with Armstrong and Greb.

But what Goldman did with Marciano has merit beyond even Marciano. Don Turner Lou Duva all came out of that group. Real trainers and teachers have to work with what one brings to the table. Marciano was Goldman's frankenstein but done right!

We see little hints of the genius as it comes down the line: Goldman allegedlly coached McCoy to attack for the championship and he won it because of the change in tactics... Well Turner was the guy who taught Holyfield to put Tyson on his heals in order to get the best of him. Holyfield listened and the rest is history.

You just do not hear Charlie's name mentioned so much but to my way of thinking he was far and wide one of the best trainers in boxing.

I don't want to be the last word here but if anyone wants to, enumerate the things Marciano did that Goldman taught him...they are obvious and brilliant and a lot of them come from the Rock's exposure to being a Catcher in baseball that almost went to the major leagues.
__________________
There are some aspects I know only little about but then some that I am probably expert in Elroy's delusional self evaluation.

[GhostofDempsey]

Goldman insisted that you try to build on a fighter’s strengths and not try to turn him into something he is not. What he saw in Rocky he knew he could not develop him into an Ezzard Charles. He taught him defense and how to use his power. He developed his left jab and left hook and built on his natural abilities. He never yelled at fighters, but instead, he would whisper in their ear to correct them when they did wrong because he didn’t want to embarrass his fighters in the gym.

[The Old LefHook]

One question. When you work for a crook like Weil does that make you a crook too? You don't have to engage in Weil's activities, do you, to be a crook? You just have to enable the crook to do his business. But I guess by that reasoning Rock would be a crook himself. He worked for Weil. He does not need Weil, and could become a crook on his won merit with that greed to satisfy.

As Goldman seems to have been the right pick philosophically to be Rock's trainer, who would have been a terrible fit as trainer for the Rock?

[billeau2]

One question. When you work for a crook like Weil does that make you a crook too? You don't have to engage in Weil's activities, do you, to be a crook? You just have to enable the crook to do his business. But I guess by that reasoning Rock would be a crook himself. He worked for Weil. He does not need Weil, and could become a crook on his won merit with that greed to satisfy.

As Goldman seems to have been the right pick philosophically to be Rock's trainer, who would have been a terrible fit as trainer for the Rock?

I used to read a sort of digest version of baseball tales about players in the golden days of the sport, when it was first becoming America's pastime and all... You know what? These stories, most of them involved fistfights, cleating guys, hitting guys with baseballs, etc... Basically the men were a bunch of sociopaths given bats, cleats, and a structured way to use them and a paycheck...sometimes.

I think it was similar in boxing. I like to think the trainers were there for the fighters. Again charlie was a former lightweight himself.

[billeau2]

Baseball Boxing

Goldman did not have much material to work with regarding the original Rock...But lets look carefully before assuming he had nothing to work with. First off, Marciano could always punch hard, and Marciano had training as a catcher. Goldman allegedly taught Marciano his footwork based on the Rock being able to crouch from being a catcher. He also taught him how to punch in a manner similar to how a ball is thrown to second base when a guy tries to steal a base.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Lets remember Rock was the Army champ before being decommissioned to civilian life, so he had already risen to the top of the heap before he turned pro.

[OctoberRed]

- -Lets remember Rock was the Army champ before being decommissioned to civilian life, so he had already risen to the top of the heap before he turned pro.

Valid point.

[billeau2]

- -Lets remember Rock was the Army champ before being decommissioned to civilian life, so he had already risen to the top of the heap before he turned pro.

I can find nothing that says Marciano was a "champ" in the army. Only that he boxed in the army. Could you confirm this? Or, if anyone could do so? He would have been around 20 and he was in a combat division. The most info I can find is that he boxed in the army to get out of "KP" but nothing about being a champ.

Could someone clarify this point?

[billeau2]

Ok found some information

Here is some information

http://www.nwguardian.com/2017/05/18...t-in-army.html

Wikki mentions it also, and while I love Wikki Its best to verify their information. Apparently he won the championship in a tourney for one year in 1946 on the strength of his punch.

Its a good point but it indicates from the source that he hardly won this as a seasoned fighter, but rather on the strength of his punch. I don't think this made Marciano a seasoned ammy by any stretch.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Always pleased to inform the uninformed.

Nobody but you ever suggested Rocky was ever a seasoned AMA. As near I can tell Rocky never saw combat due to the end of the war and won the army title while being decommissioned in DC in 46. It was spring of 47 were he cut his baby teeth with Babe Ruth and Jim Thorpe in the pro ranks of Fayetteville NC in a failed catcher tryout with the Cubs.

They were resounding successes to move on to as yet to be matched immortality, whereas his failures there instead served as a springboard for the most Iconic boxing record in history.