scale the greats 1-10

[SABBATH]

Tyson never did much damage when he was on his opponents chest, more often than not he was engaged in a clinch when he was at such a range. Tyson did most of his damage at mid range. In fact, you'd often see him stepping back to give himself more space to throw during a combination. Tyson was not one of those guys (ie Dempsey, Louis) who could do serious damage inside, in spite of his physicality.

In fact, Tyson's apparent discomfort with extreme close quarter combat is one of the reasons I'd give a Dempsey or Frazier (or even a durable, tough as nails inside counter puncher like Jerry Quarry) such a good chance against him. For a small heavyweight, he was not the trench warfare expert he should have been. Fortunately for him, he came around at a time when infighting was all but a dead art in heavyweight boxing.

Well said Kid. Here's an excerpt from George Chuvalo discussing this topic. Keep in mind this interview was before Tyson fought Holyfield and was officially exposed as a poor in-fighter.

"...And Tyson. He’s a tough kid. He walks right in. He’s that kind of a guy. He’s got lots of balls too. I like Tyson. I’d like to meet Tyson and show him a couple of things. I could help Mike.

His problem is he doesn’t know how to fight on the inside. If you take a look at his fight with Buster Mathis, Jr., he exposed that. There’s a c h i n k in the armor. He’s too straight up on the inside. If he ever pulled his right leg back, his whole upper body would be at a forty five degree angle. He’d have his head on the other guy’s chest. He’d be safe. The other guy would have no room for any leverage and Mike would have all the leverage. His stance works against him on the inside. He’s easy to push back and he can’t fight when he’s going backwards. .. "

[hellfire508]

What you will notice with that Tyson video (I only watched the first minute), is that the punches don't have much power, and they are short, compact punches. Ali threw punches at long range, pulling utilising his long reach. I have seen the Ali clip Heckler is talking about, and Ali is certainly quick there too.

However, as the saying goes, "the heavybag doesnt hit back". Handspeed in a fight is much more useful to gauge by. Tyson usually fights at mid-range (usually further than in the video), and Ali pretty much always fought at long range. Plus, Ali's combinations looked visibly faster. Look at the finishing combo on Brian London. Not all the punches land, but that is flyweight handspeed. It's ridiculous.

[Brassangel]

Originally Posted by SABBATH
Do you really put any thought into posting such nonsense? With this kind of deductive reasoning and logic, a 30's era heavyweight (Joe Louis) would be inferior to a 'modern' heavyweight like John Ruiz or Hasim Rachman. Maybe Ray Robinson being great is an illusion also as he competed in the caveman era of the 40's and 50's. And what "trained eye" do you have?

I did put thought into the post, which says more than the junk that follows your name. You can't post anything intelligent of your own accord; it's always copy-and-paste from some random article, ensuring that the bias towards one particular era shines through. It's like the frieking media.

No, Joe Louis would not be inferior to "modern" heavyweights, but he would have some disadvantages. There's a great chance that he'd still reign as champion. What I am referring to is how the fighters of the 70's, while a broad generalization for the sake of space, were almost style happy; for lack of a better term. They were often more offensive minded, attacking with their particular style, and losing in matchups where styles were contradictory. Today's fighters tend to wait for the opponent to make their move and counterpunch. While this would work well against someone who depends on one particular style, it may not bode well against say, Joe Louis, who was one of the most complete boxers in history and had nearly infinite adaptability. Or fighters like Rocky Marciano, or Joe Frazier, whose hearts were so big and their work ethic so fanatical that they overcame incredible odds. Or a fighter like Tyson who was so physically gifted that he was able to overcome his height and reach disadvantages (and lack of heart) time and time again. They could all still lose, however, simply because of stature and training differences. Many of the fighters today are incredible in size, patience, and willingness to counter all day long. While this makes for unexciting fights, and therefore, an unexciting division as it stands, they could win fights against guys who relied on trademark or even flashy styles.

I have posted three threads about Tyson, but who is more controversial in the division? Who attracts more attention than any other fighter subjectively? Who will bring out the best and worst of most people's viewpoints? The idea is to create a spark, or push the Slinky down the first stair and let it roll. I have also posted fantasy threads about Liston vs. Foreman, Holyfield vs. Frazier, Who has the most stamina?, March Madness (heavyweights), and May Madness (middleweights). I tend to jump around and find something that gets the creative juices in the typing fingers flowing. While Tyson's glass looks particularly empty, I try to go against the norm and accept the parts that were full. I don't deny what he lacks, nor will I claim anything fanatical about him (like a 1st round KO of Ali), but I will take an eye, trained whether you are the judge of that or not, and break his career down in a way that most people don't.

Again, I await your attack of one line/paragraph within my post while avoiding all of the context within. Furthermore, you aren't the resident authority because of your visitations with fighters and your library. Why else would you be labeled a "fan" just like the rest of us...you're on the exact same level as even the lowest in the category. Who's to say butterfly's posts about Ali aren't all true? Or that Yaman's posts about Tyson aren't the way things would have happened? Or even that MarcianoFan's love of the only undefeated champ isn't proof enough that Rocky would have destroyed anyone from any era? While there are times for opinions and times for the facts, this is a fantasy forum, with fantasy threads about fantasy fights, in fantasy situations, comparing apples to oranges. You are getting far too upset over something that will never be more than pure speculation.

[SABBATH]

Furthermore, you aren't the resident authority because of your visitations with fighters and your library. Why else would you be labeled a "fan" just like the rest of us...you're on the exact same level as even the lowest in the category.

I've never claimed to be the "resident authority" but seeing how I have actually met, spoken and questioned AT LENGTH the very fighters who have been in the ring with Sugar Ray Robinson, Tyson, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Arguello, etc...I would certainly put my insight above mere "the exact same level as even the lowest in the category."

When a boxer is in an informal discussion and they know it's not going to be printed, they shoot from the hip and offer up much more information than you can get from reading printed interviews or watching press conferences. It has been my experience that in this setting boxers will open up, more so if they are aware that the person they are speaking with is knowledgeable and has good insight into the sport of boxing.

Meeting and speaking one on one with great fighters and making a point to specifically ask for information regarding the comparative qualities of their opponents ie: power, speed, strength, style etc... from the actual men who fought these great fighters I would say gives me a pretty good edge over many who post on these forums.

How many of you really know how Chuvalo injured his eye in the Frazier fight? How many know what Ali actually says in a clinch to his opponent? How fast were Ali's hands compared to Patterson's? How hard does Foreman hit compared to Frazier, Quarry, Bonevena, Patterson or Ali? How strong was Cleveland Williams? These are just some of the many questions I have put to Chuvalo when I have spoken with him (more than once).

What does it feel like to be hit by Hearns as opposed to Duran or Hagler? Who had a better defense and was harder to hit, Benitez or Duran? Why did Duran really quit in New Orleans? These are just some of the questions that were answered by Sugar Ray Leonard when I spoke with him.

What about asking Marvis Frazier and Conroy Nelson to describe in detail their fights with Tyson as well as their opinions on his strengths and comparative punching power. ****, I stood face to face with Nelson in an apartment hallway as he re-enacted the whole fight for me, throwing punches about a foot from my face in the process.

What was Lennox Lewis like as an amateur? I could tell you seeing as I spoke with him often when we were teenagers and fought out of opposing Boxing clubs in the early 80's.

How exactly did Aaron Pryor actually train when he was in his prime and how good did he look in the ring? I could tell you that as I saw every one of his training sessions standing at the ring apron a mere few feet away as he prepared for Nicky Furlano in 1984.

What's it like to meet Ali then later walk alone with him arm over his shoulder as he approaches a crowd of fans standing around his waiting limousine? I could tell you that as I did that in 1995. What does Ali talk about when he reunites with an old opponent? Do they ever talk about their actual fights? I could tell you that also.

These are just a few snippets of what I have been exposed to and how some of my information and/or opinions have been obtained or confirmed so in regards to me being "on the exact same level as the lowest in the category", I don't agree with you.

[Heckler]

I Dont know Sabbath... but id love to. Have you any articles or notes on the matter available?

[Verstyle]

What you will notice with that Tyson video (I only watched the first minute), is that the punches don't have much power, and they are short, compact punches. Ali threw punches at long range, pulling utilising his long reach. I have seen the Ali clip Heckler is talking about, and Ali is certainly quick there too.

However, as the saying goes, "the heavybag doesnt hit back". Handspeed in a fight is much more useful to gauge by. Tyson usually fights at mid-range (usually further than in the video), and Ali pretty much always fought at long range. Plus, Ali's combinations looked visibly faster. Look at the finishing combo on Brian London. Not all the punches land, but that is flyweight handspeed. It's ridiculous.

i dont even know u but i have to say that was the dumbest comment i think i've ever heard on boxingscene ever!

[BKM-]

i dont even know u but i have to say that was the dumbest comment i think i've ever heard on boxingscene ever!

Those punches didn't have power by watching the shape of the heavy bag and sound it makes when the punches land hahahaha

[hellfire508]

i dont even know u but i have to say that was the dumbest comment i think i've ever heard on boxingscene ever!

Well perhaps when the video goes on he starts to hit it harder, but like I said, I only watched the first minute.

a) its a small heavybag - you wanna see power on a REAL heavybag? Watch Liston or Foreman on it.
b) If that's full power for him, then he hits as hard as Pacquiao.

You cannot possibly think that those punches were all that hard. And as for the distance of the punches, is that too difficult for you to understand? Short punches are thrown quicker...? Do you understand that? A-B is quicker than A-C? Grade 2 stuff here mate.

Stop making ridiculous comments about "the worst post ever" and get an education. Of course to do that, you will have to let go of Tyson's balls.

[Verstyle]

Well perhaps when the video goes on he starts to hit it harder, but like I said, I only watched the first minute.

a) its a small heavybag - you wanna see power on a REAL heavybag? Watch Liston or Foreman on it.
b) If that's full power for him, then he hits as hard as Pacquiao.

You cannot possibly think that those punches were all that hard. And as for the distance of the punches, is that too difficult for you to understand? Short punches are thrown quicker...? Do you understand that? A-B is quicker than A-C? Grade 2 stuff here mate.

Stop making ridiculous comments about "the worst post ever" and get an education. Of course to do that, you will have to let go of Tyson's balls.

i will quote this dumb post once i come back from work

[hellfire508]

Ok I watched a bit more of it. He starts to bring in left hooks to the body, then up top. Those carry a more power. However, it's still not pull power. How can I tell? Because if Mike Tyson hit a pissy little heavybag like that down low, with a hook with full power, it would do a loop. However, throughout the video, he stays in at close range, and occasionly throws some straight left and rights from mid-range. Therefore my comment stands. If you still can't understand it, let me know, and I'll make sure I get the local second grade teacher to explain it in your level of english.

And whoever made the bull**** comment about the "sound". Padded gloves onto a bag always makes a slapping sound. Ever hit a bag with gloves before?