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The Heavyweight Champions from Antiquity to Contemporary.

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  • #11
    Originally posted by Celtic Hammer View Post
    Phuck off m8, they obviously doing the Tango.
    Naw, you phuck off m8.

    If I'm not mistaken Sumeria even has the oldest recorded mention of wrestling, in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

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    • #12
      I found this thread while trying to help another dude find out about ancients. I think this is old and I made a superior one since I posted this one, but I couldn't find it.

      Just skimming, Shoulder, dude, not everyone rolling in dirt is rasslin and not everyone punching is boxing. We have rules. This is the sport that became the sport you watch. Nothing in Sumer has **** all to do with what you watch. Nothing in Gil's Epic is relative to collegiate rasslin. They call it greco-roman for a reason. This is the origin point to your sport.

      You can say surely caveman invented boxing if you're going to be as loose as any man punching another man in any contest. FFS.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post
        I found this thread while trying to help another dude find out about ancients. I think this is old and I made a superior one since I posted this one, but I couldn't find it.

        Just skimming, Shoulder, dude, not everyone rolling in dirt is rasslin and not everyone punching is boxing. We have rules. This is the sport that became the sport you watch. Nothing in Sumer has **** all to do with what you watch. Nothing in Gil's Epic is relative to collegiate rasslin. They call it greco-roman for a reason. This is the origin point to your sport.

        You can say surely caveman invented boxing if you're going to be as loose as any man punching another man in any contest. FFS.

        - - Fighting with fists was last resort when running out of spears, arrows, and broken clubs.

        Gilgamesh and Enkidu do a dance of death raising up vast clouds of dust as howling dogs ran between their legs.

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        • #14
          Love your posts Marchegiano. I read em' all.

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          • #15
            Great reference source. Was it possible for an American fighter to be declared champion during the 'English Period'? I.e. Before Sullivan?

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            • #16
              Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
              Great reference source. Was it possible for an American fighter to be declared champion during the 'English Period'? I.e. Before Sullivan?
              - - Coulda been, but Mollineux and Heeney among others got whooped.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post

                - - Coulda been, but Mollineux and Heeney among others got whooped.
                Heenan, and no, he beat the crap outta Tom Sayers.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
                  Great reference source. Was it possible for an American fighter to be declared champion during the 'English Period'? I.e. Before Sullivan?
                  Well, I'll give you two answers because I kind of had to hit my notes a bit

                  Short answer - From the 1750s to the 1790s and from the 1840s-modernization yes it would have been possible for an American to be the English champion.




                  Long Answer:

                  So, firstly, this thread's a bit, well, not good. Here's the real list of champions for the early English era:

                  James 'The First' Figg - 1719

                  Ned 'The Pipemaker' Sutton - 1724

                  James 'The First' Figg - 1725

                  Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1725

                  Nathaniel Peartree - 1726

                  John Gritton - 1727

                  Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1728

                  Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

                  Bill Gretting - 1730

                  Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

                  Bill Gretting - 1732

                  Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1733

                  George 'The Barber' Taylor - 1734

                  Jack 'The Father of Boxing' Broughton - 1736

                  None of these guys could lose the title of the English champion to anyone who was not English.

                  That said, the English would not have refused a non-English of the honor of being recognized as the best boxer had an international fighter beaten an English champion. They just would not have called them English champion because champion meant more like representative than best through this period.

                  Slack, Stevens, onward until the 1800s would have called any man who defeated the English champion the new English champion. This is the period when you can safely assume the term champion refers to the best man.

                  In England the 1800s was super nationalistic and there was a lot of pride in being English, conversely a lot of hate for things that were not English.

                  To make it easy, here's a list of guys who roughly fit into an era when it is rather likely they would recognize an American as English champion:

                  Jack 'The Norfolk Butcher' Slack - 1750

                  William 'The Nailer' Stevens - 1760

                  George 'The Collier' Meggs - 1761

                  George 'The Baker' Millsom - 1762

                  Tom 'The Pavior' Juchau - 1765

                  William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1766

                  Tom 'The Waterman' Lyons - 1769

                  William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1769

                  Peter 'The Irish' Corcoran - 1771

                  Harry 'The West Countryman' Sellers - 1776

                  Duggan 'Jack' Fearns - 1779

                  Tom Johnson a.k.a Thomas Jackling - 1787

                  Benjamin 'Big Ben' Brain - 1791

                  Daniel 'The Jew' Mendoza - 1794

                  What is interesting in the next category of English champions is technically speaking there was no rule or anything preventing an non-English from being English champion. It was the English themselves and it began with a nobleman taking issue with non-christian champion Mendoza. John Jackson bribed his way into a fight with Mendoza where Jackson could cheat with impunity. Jackson then retired and formed what might be described as the first independent sanctioning body. The Pugilistic Society. This was really a cabal of officials that made sure the Englishman always won. The following is the era when technically speaking an non-English could be English champion but practically speaking it was impossible.

                  John 'Gentleman' Jackson - 1795

                  Thomas 'The Fighting Oilman' Owen - 1796

                  Jack 'Barty' Bartholomew - 1797

                  Jem 'The Napoleon of the Ring' Belcher - 1800

                  Henry "Hen the Game Chicken" Pearce - 1805

                  John 'The Potter' Gully - 1807

                  Tom 'The Black Diamond' Cribb - 1808

                  Tom 'The Light Tapper' Spring - 1823

                  Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor' - 1824

                  Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1825

                  Peter 'Young Rump Steak' Crawley - 1827

                  Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1827

                  It got so bad that after Ward had regained his title the next big deal contender the public wanted him to face was named James Burke. He was born in London. He was deaf and Ward used this to get people to believe Burke wasn't actually English enough to even challenge for his title.

                  Eventually this hyper focus on Englishness frustrated the English elites who paid for boxing to the point where they created the American boxing industry. Up until this point boxing in America would feature such classics as rasslin, kicking, fishhooks and eye gouging. The English referred to early American boxing as rough and tumble and refused to see it as true boxing. America's first champions are all former rough and tumble boxers and then became American LPRR boxers. After Burke would fight the Irish champion O'Rourke in America in 1833 training facilities would be opened up by Bill Fuller and Aaron(not Tom) Molyneaux in the 1830s and 50s respectively, America would crown its first official American LPRR champion in the 1841, again using the Irish the legitimize themselves.

                  Which kind of force the English back in England to chill on the English is best corruption a bit because there was competition in the marketplace anyway now but does ensure the English in the title English champion is a purely regional distinction. Likewise with the American champion. Allen and Mace both got American titles while being English.

                  Wouldn't take long before it's the 1860s and the World title would be a thing. Which really cements the idea of regional titles and champions.




                  Good question.


                  Last edited by Marchegiano; 05-14-2022, 09:45 PM. Reason: both times in the short
                  Willie Pep 229 likes this.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by Willow The Wisp View Post

                    Heenan, and no, he beat the crap outta Tom Sayers.
                    - - Hah, ha, ha, ha, ho, ho Heeney mug look like his Heinie after one armed Tom beat the kraap oozing out of it. Heeney completely blind swinging at anything that moved as the police and fans stormed the ring.

                    Little Tom kept his title...DUH, while U beating heart bleats in a soprano's shrieking notes in the calls of a dying bestial feral...gratis...you're welcome.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post

                      - - Hah, ha, ha, ha, ho, ho Heeney mug look like his Heinie after one armed Tom beat the kraap oozing out of it. Heeney completely blind swinging at anything that moved as the police and fans stormed the ring.

                      Little Tom kept his title...DUH, while U beating heart bleats in a soprano's shrieking notes in the calls of a dying bestial feral...gratis...you're welcome.
                      Being forced to recognize Heenan as is equal is not keeping his title. They both walked away with a title.

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