Most overrated boxer in history?

[butterfly1964]

Ok well I was half asleep with my last post which is why it was so "jostled" around......

Alright lets begin...*yawn*

Alright well Why not criticize Dempsey...
Well for starters he fought guys who were more reputable then most of Jack Johnson's opponents...Thats not because I don't know people that Johnson fought but because Dempsey actually did....
Jack Sharkey
Jess Willard (who actually did fight Johnson however Johnson lost likewise Dempsey won)
Luis Firpo (though I'm not entirely sure of his status at the time)
Gene Tunney (^^^^)

Jack Johnson's resume is better than Dempsey's. He fought and beat pretty much all of the top black fighters of the day. Dempsey did not. Johnson defended the title more often than Demspey as well. here is a list of the top name wins for both Johnson and Dempsey.

Jack Johnson:

Jim Jeffries
Sam Langford (black)
Sam McVea 3x (black)
Joe Jeanette 3x (black)
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns
Stanley Ketchel
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Young Peter Jackson (black)
Frank Childs (black)
Black Bill (black)

Jack Dempsey:

Jack Sharkey
Jess Willard
Tommy Gibbons
Luis Firpo
Billy Miske
Bill Brennan 2x
Willie Meehan (black)
Fred Fulton
Carl Morris 3x

Dempsey only fought as far as I know one reputable black fighter, and none during his title reign. Johnson defended the title at least once against a black man, and during his stint as the colored champion, fought basically every reputable black fighter of his time. Sure some of them were green, but so was Johnson and he did at least fight them unlike Dempsey.

Trashing guys from Johnson's time like who?

Like Dempsey. He came a little later, but still both were long ago.

How many times have I said this exact statement to you, only to be replied that "Ali has only fought one guy with a negative record..." I'm quite aware of this and have said this same thing, but Johnson has basically fought bums throughout his career....

Just because they have winning records, doesn't mean their not bums.

Again, you don't know enough about the fighters in Johnson's time, so you can't say "he fought bums throughout his career", just because you are not familiar with them. And still, if he did, it's because he fought so often that you have to take the occasional stiff like I mentioned before. Look at Sugar Ray Robinson's record. There are lots of guys on his record that had records like 3-15, when Ray already had 100 fights. Why not go after him? What about Henry Armstrong doing the same thing? Why not go after them? Why just Johnson? (I think I'm on to your Johnson hating tendencies now)

Next..I have said why I keep mentioning the black thing....

"In the time of Johnson blacks were thought to be an inferior race of people, which is why they weren't allowed to play sports with whites (who were thought to be superior)...So because blacks were thought to be inferior, and a black fighter came out of no where and beat white guys who were thought to be superior people were in shock...This fighter even beat the "Great White Hope"...Because of these factors historical accounts can be sometimes exaggerated to make Johnson look better then he was because of that fact that he was supposed to be garbage....

I don't think that necessarily people were in shock, because this happened before with Peter Jackson and others, that's why blacks were ducked because the beltholders knew they would lose. It's just that Burns was the first one that had the balls to risk his title and fight Johnson, but everyone pretty much knew this would happen.

Ok, you said that about Johnson, now let me spin that to make other fighters look bad.

Joe Louis

"Because he beat Max Schmeling who was hyped up by Germany to be part of the master race and many people thought he would beat Louis because he beat him before. Also he fought "Bums of the Month" to make him look good and pad his record"

Muhammad Ali

"He scored an upset of Sonny Liston, who was old at the time and threw the fight, then when on his European tour beating bums like Brian London and Karl Mildenberger, then beat up on a washed up Joe Frazier, and he layed on the ropes against George Foreman and got lucky because he had no stamina and was an overrated crude, amateurish slugger. Also he is built up because of his stance on the Vietnam War, and became a hero and an inspiration to a lot of people non-boxing related."

Jack Dempsey

"Because America needed a hero after World War I, and because he beat a dumb slugger like Willard, who was old anyways. He became popular and was a big gate draw, and he was good-looking, which made women like him as well. He made boxing the most popular sport in America and provded action, which was what the public wanted."

Do you see where I'm going here? Reputable boxing historians studied his style and came to the conclusion that he was something way ahead of his time and would be a nightmare for any fighter. He was fast enough to handle little people, and strong enough to handle the big guys as well. He was nearly impossible to hit because of his cat quick defense, and he was a great counterer. He hit fairly hard, hard enough to hurt you, and he had incredible stamina. These are facts, and not so called "exaggerated accounts". With those attributes, he would have a good chance against any fighter.

Notice how you said took a "page" out of his style...Which in turn means they adapted it to there liking/ making it better....It's the same in the case of Dempsey...Dempsey's style really wasn't perfect and guys like Marciano and Tyson took "pages" out of Dempsey's style and made it better...Marciano kept his hands up and took Dempsey's roll and improved it adapting it into his crouch, etc....

how was that, mind you I'm still alittle asleep

All I'm saying is that they took certain things he did and used them, they didn't "make them better."

[Southpaw Stinger]

Again, why not criticize Dempsey's cometition or someone else, not just Johnson? Dempsey's boxrec.com record is similar to Johnson (many fighters seeming to have had their pro debut), but I don't see you trashing him or Jeffries or any guys from around that time, just Johnson.

Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

You keep mentioning this black thing, but you still have explained why being black supposedly boosted his legacy. There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

If you ever hope to win against me, you better find a better argument, buahahahahahaha!!

I suppose it boosted his legacy because he was the first black champion. If he was white he would have been seen as a talented champ and defensive wizard... although if he was white he wouldn't have fought all of these white hopes that were continuously placed in the ring with him and maybe his reign might have been longer or briefer depending on what different competition that he would face.

[Left2body]

To me the most over-rated fighter still active is ODLH. Dont get me wrong he is good and a HOF by its standards but he is often projected as this generations SRL. ODLH never did that great versus top competition. What I mean by that is, he never dominated or showed greatness against a top opponent. Quartey was a great fight but close, DLH struggled and its debatable he lost, the same with the Whitaker fight. Chavez doesn't really count do to the point in Chavez's career which it was fought.

You have Tito, Mosley Vargas and Hopkins left and out of those 4 he lost to 3 of them, although it is debatable he beat Tito). However even if you believe DLH beat Tito he still failed to impress or show greatness, he wanted to do something he never did before and that was be a slick boxer instead of a boxer puncher (he decided to change his stripes for the biggest fight of his career). While I think DLH was an very good fighter I just dont see him being as great as is projected and believe him to be overhyped due to a well placed Golden Boy media image.

[Hydro]

Well, they havent claimed him the Goat, but i really feel like he's being overrated even by some of the best posters around here. His story is quite like Tyson, but its the credit he gets for things that fighters like Tyson were discredit for. That doesnt make sence to me. Tyson DUCKED Foreman his whole Career(No real proof such as interviews etc have been shown) But Foreman did not duck Holmes or Quarry(Proof of that is as fake as the 'tyson ducking foreman' claims). Liston and Tyson were bully's that got their asses kicked when someone stood up and fought back. But Foreman wasn't a bully that relied on fear Like a Tyson or Liston when Lyle was the first one to fight back and almost ko Big George. You know what i mean? These Foreman type fans are hypocrites. Thats annoying. I will admit though that Tyson is a lot more overrated than Foreman on this forum. Too obvious
I didnt really compare them, just wanted to express myself about George Foreman ha ha

It is an exaggeration that people use.

Foreman defeated 40 fighters before he lost to Ali and not all of them were scared or "didn't fight back". Frazier feared no one.

I agree that Foreman is often overrated.

I never bought that whole "you just can't show fear and fight back and you'll beat them" argument. It's false.

Other guys fought back against Liston and Tyson and they still lost. Williams, Machen, Berbick, Bruno the first time, Ruddock, etc....

[hemichromis]

Tyson. Mayweather Jr. is on his way to becoming most overrated.

i agree mayweather is No where near as goods as people think he's just very showy his fight against bladomir was a snoozefest

tyson is severly overrated by alot of young people who don't really know anything about boxing BUT he is underatted by old timers and is almost certainly a top10-15 of all time heavyweight on anyones list

[hemichromis]

Both johnson ansd sdwempsey fought 'tomato cans' both (in their prime) were by far the best of their time. they were both way ahead of their time

[Tony Jones]

I think Tyson is overrated by the general public, but underrated by alot of die-hard boxing fans. Of course, he has a lot of nuthuggers who claim to know alot about the sport, who also think he is invincible.

But basically - overrated by public, underrated by boxing historians etc., who give him no chance against some older fighters.

Exactly the point i was gonna make lol. I've always felt Ali was overated too. Not that he wasnt an all-time great, just that there have been better.

[squealpiggy]

Exactly the point i was gonna make lol. I've always felt Ali was overated too. Not that he wasnt an all-time great, just that there have been better.

Wait it took you over a year to think up this response?

[Tuggers1986]

Sugar Ray Robinson















JUST KIDDING

[xEDDIEx]

muhammad ali