The 25 GOAT.

[The Old LefHook]

Darn it, I forgot one name Hemmern Hank. All right knock Hafey off and slide Hank in somewhere in the top 10.

[Elroy The Great]

Things not seen by the trained eye always appear a certain way. The thing is, some of us who understand the methods used and try to point out what is going on, are seldom listened to. Not talking about you here, but by many who choose not to see things.

or maybe some people see what they want to see...
one fans caveman is another fans expert strategist...

this is why we have some crazy scores...
ie; may vs canelo
some people see things differently.

[Elroy The Great]

Darn it, I forgot one name Hemmern Hank. All right knock Hafey off and slide Hank in somewhere in the top 10.

we still dont know how you came to your list. why some made it, others didnt and their placing.....

[Weltschmerz]

Joke thread. Makes list, doesn't explain criteria or break anything down.

[billeau2]

or maybe some people see what they want to see...
one fans caveman is another fans expert strategist...

this is why we have some crazy scores...
ie; may vs canelo
some people see things differently.

Its not a matter of perspective...When executing technique in a chaotic situation it won't look clear.

Watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYjwC1vVbMI

Now watch the first technique against the sword in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbAj6bd7Dos

the movement the cop makes is the same essential movement in a free flow context that the teacher makes against the sword. In a free flow context things get messy: the cop gets nicked, it doesn't look as pretty with the take down. I guarantee you that 99% of people will say "the cops vest saved his life." Well...it didn't. First off a blade like that can punch through. If the cop is out of position, even of he shoots the guy he will be slashed, stabbed at repeatedly if he does not get into the right position. If the cop didn't control the weapon, and started trying to shoot the guy you would have had two fatalities, the cop and the guy.

Look at 7:35 of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

Trajedy. This is a guy who didn't turn with the knife...He died from that cut. Thats what happens when things are chaotic and no technique is used. Almost looks the same except that two things changed: the guy was penetrated through with the blade and the knife weilder was not nulified. Maybe if he had a vest he would have lived...But what killed him was trying to move straight back instead of angling.

Sometimes things look sloppy...one of my teachers for years trained us with blade...His life was saved because during an attack from 5 guys he reflexively (as we were taught) moved with the attack and angled his neck out of range. he was cut and because of the turn of his head, the cut caught him flesh side, just avoiding the cateroid and jugular by less than an inch... LESS than an inch, with a nasty cut to show for it, but no major blood pumps opened up...thats what our arteries and veins are...pumps that spew and when they are opened we can bleed out fast.

So I will say it again: you have to know what you are looking at. When a Mike Tyson punch comes towards you, moving the correct way and with the correct timing may still look like you are hit, but you have taken most of the impact off the punch. Most people will assume the vest saved the cop, did the Mexican guy stop stabbing after the first attack? I could show you things the old timers did all day... You wouldn't know until they were shown though and it has nothing to do with perspective. Things like how the shoulder moves in response to a blow, the weight transfer and trapping of an opponent's arm, etc.

[billeau2]

Darn it, I forgot one name Hemmern Hank. All right knock Hafey off and slide Hank in somewhere in the top 10.

Damn it Lefty... You know damn well you need to include Lazlo Pap.

Heres part of my list:

Pap
Svenn Ottke's ref

[The Old LefHook]

Welchsmertz thinks my list is well nigh perfect as is, but I will give it even a little more work. Let's look at her again.

1 Jimmy Wilde
2 Ray Robinson
3 Sam Langford
4 Mickey Walker
5 Harry Greb
6 Roberto Duran
7 Hammern Hank
8 Muhammad Ali
9 Ray Leonard
10 Joe Gans
11 Jack Dempsey
12 Barbados Joe Walcott
13 Bob Fitzsimmons
14 Benny Leonard
15 Sandy Saddler
16 Salvador Sanchez
17 Willie Pep
18 Charley Burley
19 Gene Tunney
20 Julio Ceasar Chavez
21 Carlos Monzon
22 Ezzard Charles
23 Mike Tyson
24 Marvin Hagler
25 Freddy Welsh

By God, they don't get much better than that. This kind of precision reasoning is rare in boxing, by God. Like Ramanujan, my mind skips to the essence adroitly and without need of proof, later examination always bearing out my conjectures in detail.

The crossover term from chess is drawing master. Very few drawing masters make the GOAT list. Mayweather, Whitaker, Benitez, Locche, Mike Gibbons,...Pep, were all drawing masters who seldom beat the urine out of first class opponents but could spoil anyone's game down to an either-way decision. The choice of one drawing master over another for the list is arbitrary, as one is as good as another to me, but some people might want a list half full of drawing masters because of the high level of defensive skill on display As for me, I want to see men fight with Viking swords, not toothpicks. Any sword that kills instead of merely scoring a touch.

Some drawing masters have more pop than others. Some walk the line of even being a drawing master. Locche was the most pure drawing master ever seen by these eyes, though one has a su****ion that Mike Gibbons was equally elusive and feather-fisted.

On the other end of the spectrum one can reasonably contend it might be too easy for destruction machines to make it onto my list. The most obvious case is Tyson, with his little strip in time of brilliance.

Another way to approach such a list is to include only those for whom extensive film evidence exists.

It is not necessary to lay out every reason for every entry since most people on here understand most of the reasons on sight for any boxer. Such informal polls are opinion pieces, not phd dissertations.

[Ray Corso]

If you have no real training in the sport you won't have any idea what a proper technique is! There are right and wrong ways of performing the techniques. Occasionally we have an individual who's natural athleticism can compensate for improper techniques but that's a handful of men over a 100 year span.

Reading records and trying to compare results when common opponents are presents rarely give anyone a clear evaluation.

Everyone here that drives a car isn't driving in the Daytona 500
because their not qualified but they have their favorites and offer reasons why their favorites are the best.

Well boxing is the same scenario, there's no one here who's been trained by a trainer that knows proper techniques that's why no one here is showing up to actually compete.

Without actual training by a pro trainer a fan knows Diddle about BO xing!

Ray

[Elroy The Great]

Its not a matter of perspective...When executing technique in a chaotic situation it won't look clear.

Watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYjwC1vVbMI

Now watch the first technique against the sword in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbAj6bd7Dos

the movement the cop makes is the same essential movement in a free flow context that the teacher makes against the sword. In a free flow context things get messy: the cop gets nicked, it doesn't look as pretty with the take down. I guarantee you that 99% of people will say "the cops vest saved his life." Well...it didn't. First off a blade like that can punch through. If the cop is out of position, even of he shoots the guy he will be slashed, stabbed at repeatedly if he does not get into the right position. If the cop didn't control the weapon, and started trying to shoot the guy you would have had two fatalities, the cop and the guy.

Look at 7:35 of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

Trajedy. This is a guy who didn't turn with the knife...He died from that cut. Thats what happens when things are chaotic and no technique is used. Almost looks the same except that two things changed: the guy was penetrated through with the blade and the knife weilder was not nulified. Maybe if he had a vest he would have lived...But what killed him was trying to move straight back instead of angling.

Sometimes things look sloppy...one of my teachers for years trained us with blade...His life was saved because during an attack from 5 guys he reflexively (as we were taught) moved with the attack and angled his neck out of range. he was cut and because of the turn of his head, the cut caught him flesh side, just avoiding the cateroid and jugular by less than an inch... LESS than an inch, with a nasty cut to show for it, but no major blood pumps opened up...thats what our arteries and veins are...pumps that spew and when they are opened we can bleed out fast.

So I will say it again: you have to know what you are looking at. When a Mike Tyson punch comes towards you, moving the correct way and with the correct timing may still look like you are hit, but you have taken most of the impact off the punch. Most people will assume the vest saved the cop, did the Mexican guy stop stabbing after the first attack? I could show you things the old timers did all day... You wouldn't know until they were shown though and it has nothing to do with perspective. Things like how the shoulder moves in response to a blow, the weight transfer and trapping of an opponent's arm, etc.

within a BOXERS world, there are things (for lack of a better word) called technique, strategy and form.

technique, how to go about a game plan in the most effective manner.
strategy, having a effective game plan.
form, are you a sloppy **** or not ?

in a BOXERS world, there is really no reason to expect to defend yourself against a knife or sword. or kicking and wrestling. or biting and tackling.

[billeau2]

within a BOXERS world, there are things (for lack of a better word) called technique, strategy and form.

technique, how to go about a game plan in the most effective manner.
strategy, having a effective game plan.
form, are you a sloppy **** or not ?

in a BOXERS world, there is really no reason to expect to defend yourself against a knife or sword. or kicking and wrestling. or biting and tackling.

The point I was trying to get across to you was that technique can look sloppy when applied and if one does not know what to look for it appears that no technique is being used at all. The reason I used the weapon scenerio is because the consequences of using, not using a technique are highlighted...you can live or die.