Strongest fighter ever lived

[LondonRingRules]

Come on LondonRingRules. Don't be shy. Step up to the plate. I won't wait all day.

** I doubt you ever have to wait to pass gas.

Ali stated he was out on his feet against Foreman. This is such old news that it probably long been recycled in the bottom of your birdcage, but can be found in several of the two dozen or so bios of him.

Ali collapsed, fainted really, plain and simple. This can be seen on film seconds after the fight, and seen on his face which was in considerable distress before the collapse, and Norman Mailer writes about it in The Fight.

Foreman did not have all the advantages, clearly. All he had was youth and power. Ali was only 32, not in his physical prime which turned out to be short, but he was close to his physical prime and had much more big fight experience. He also had time to acclimate to the people, and whip them onto his side against George, and that would include the brutal murderous president who liked Ali so much that he stayed at the presidential palace, letting the people know who the brutal dictator favored.

George arrived weeks later was consigned abandoned army barracks behind barbed wire which he hated. George was immediately severely cut and the fight was postponed a month, during which George could not spar, nor was George allowed to leave the country to tend to his cut. He was held hostage until the fight ended, and didn't like the country he was staying at for good reasons.

I have no problem with the Ali win. It was one of almost a dozen miraculous Ali wins where he benefited from conditions and favorable judging and refereeing. Unprecendent in boxing history really because he never suffered from any bad calls.

What was unusual was his refusal to grant a rematch. Keep in mind that George was publically calling him out, and King held both their contracts. Ali practically lived for rematches, unless the names were Jones, Foreman, and Young.

One chowderhaid on here thinks Ali won all the rounds because of the mythology of the fight which has brainwashed the gullible. Ring did a double edition on the 30th anniversary of the fight, with archival pre thru post fight commentary and interviews.

Foreman clearly wanted a rematch in the interviews and is very philosophical about his loss. Ali is evasive about the rematch, instead indicating some insecurity about his win, brashly asserting his victory and then asking for confirmation of his performance.

And of course, only Foreman could be interviewed for the anniversary of the fight. Ali can no longer give interviews.

[hemichromis]

i used to believe that if ali and foreman had had a rematch, foreman would use his brain and fought slower and more carefully and ultimately won

but recently i think it would be more of a toss-up

[K-DOGG]

If Foreman and Ali had rematched after the 3rd Frazier fight, George would have a better chance than before; but still it's a matter of styles and when the fight took place. Ali left most of his "greatness" in the ring in Manilla. He showed flashes after that; but only flashes. The Thrilla effectively finished off both Ali and Frazier.

George, if he had slowed down, would still not have been able to outbox the Muhammad that fought Norton a third time. George just wasn't that good of a boxer and his power, while devastating, wouldn't have kayoed Ali, IMO. George was a pounder, not a one-punch artist, really....and no way Ali would quit and he still had enough left to keep a TKO from happening in 1976.

Now, I will say if Foreman had fought the Ali that fought Shavers, for example, he would have more than likely won a decision...if he paced himself....or a possible TKO with the ref or Ali's corner stopping it.

Ali-Foreman II in 1975....Ali wins. Ali-Foreman II in 1976...toss up with Ali being the slight favorite. Ali-Foreman II in 1977 on....Foreman.

Don't know what all this speculation means; but that's my two cents worth.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

If Foreman and Ali had rematched after the 3rd Frazier fight, George would have a better chance than before; but still it's a matter of styles and when the fight took place. Ali left most of his "greatness" in the ring in Manilla. He showed flashes after that; but only flashes. The Thrilla effectively finished off both Ali and Frazier.

George, if he had slowed down, would still not have been able to outbox the Muhammad that fought Norton a third time. George just wasn't that good of a boxer and his power, while devastating, wouldn't have kayoed Ali, IMO. George was a pounder, not a one-punch artist, really....and no way Ali would quit and he still had enough left to keep a TKO from happening in 1976.

Now, I will say if Foreman had fought the Ali that fought Shavers, for example, he would have more than likely won a decision...if he paced himself....or a possible TKO with the ref or Ali's corner stopping it.

Ali-Foreman II in 1975....Ali wins. Ali-Foreman II in 1976...toss up with Ali being the slight favorite. Ali-Foreman II in 1977 on....Foreman.

Don't know what all this speculation means; but that's my two cents worth.

Thats incorrect IMO
After the first Rumble in Jungle Foreman wanted a rematch but Ali though at times flashy and much of a showoff was smart enough to realize that since his layoff he wasn't able to dance those 15 rounds (though for me i don't think that would help to much) and also the rope-a-dope wouldn't work, with these things ruled out the only thing ali would have left really is trading with Foreman and even he knew that wasn't a good idea.

Ali didn't want a reamtch cause he knew he'd lose. See one thing Foreman got out of that fight with Ali was smarts. Though a devastating lose, he got the smarts out of that fight which would later help him have one of the most successful comebacks ever. this also helped him conserve energy in every fight after that. Instead of throwing crazily for 4-6 rounds, he could now pick and choose his punches more wisely and go a full 12 rounds. The Rope-a-dope only works once.

Proof:everybody tried to rope-a-dope Foreman after that fight they all got ktfo

[K-DOGG]

Thats incorrect IMO
After the first Rumble in Jungle Foreman wanted a rematch but Ali though at times flashy and much of a showoff was smart enough to realize that since his layoff he wasn't able to dance those 15 rounds (though for me i don't think that would help to much) and also the rope-a-dope wouldn't work, with these things ruled out the only thing ali would have left really is trading with Foreman and even he knew that wasn't a good idea.

Ali didn't want a reamtch cause he knew he'd lose. See one thing Foreman got out of that fight with Ali was smarts. Though a devastating lose, he got the smarts out of that fight which would later help him have one of the most successful comebacks ever. this also helped him conserve energy in every fight after that. Instead of throwing crazily for 4-6 rounds, he could now pick and choose his punches more wisely and go a full 12 rounds. The Rope-a-dope only works once.

Proof:everybody tried to rope-a-dope Foreman after that fight they all got ktfo

You could be right. Good post.

[Southpaw Stinger]

The Rope-a-dope only works once.

Proof:everybody tried to rope-a-dope Foreman after that fight they all got ktfo

Very true.

[SABBATH]

Ali stated he was out on his feet against Foreman. This is such old news that it probably long been recycled in the bottom of your birdcage, but can be found in several of the two dozen or so bios of him.

Once again LRR you fail to deliver. I asked you to name when Ali was hurt and predictably you pitch a shut-out. Having watched the fight for the 1000th time this morning, Foreman landed possibly 6 clean power shots to Ali's head in the entire fight. There were so few it was hard to remember which rounds they occurred. Ali held on after catching a big right uppercut in the 1st which was probably the only time if any that Ali may have been stung. Another clean uppercut later in the fight, a right hand to the side of Ali's face and maybe one left hook were the only notable head shots Ali took and he continues to fight and never appeared to be in any danger at any time in the fight. If you were familiar with the fight you would have known this. Ali says he was out on his feet? Do you accept everything Ali says as gospel? If so he may have some land buried beneath a dump in Mexica you might be interested in purchasing country boy.

Ali collapsed, fainted really, plain and simple. This can be seen on film seconds after the fight, and seen on his face which was in considerable distress before the collapse, and Norman Mailer writes about it in The Fight.

I prefer to believe my own eyes and not those of Norman Mailer's who saw the events once through a crowd amidst pandemonium before writing about it then rushing off to meet a deadline. Mailer was not in the ring at the time and was not close enough to see exactly what happened. He was a few rows back. The camera angle after the fight is specifically focused on Ali and you can clearly see the the events unfold. Take the time to watch it, you might learn something.

Considerable distress? Ali told the well wishers to get back before he ****** Rachman's arms and told him to put him down when his brother hugged him from behind and lifted him a couple of inches up. Ali then sits down, forearms on knees before getting straight back up a few moments later. People that collapse and faint do not miraculously end up sitting in that position. Watch out country boy, the aliens are landing.

He also had time to acclimate to the people, and whip them onto his side against George.

Poor George. The people didn't like him. Such insurmountable odds to overcome. Now I see. It was the people of Zaire that won the fight for Ali. Just think if they had of yelled George Bomaye! It would have been Ali that was 10 counted.

George was immediately severely cut and the fight was postponed a month, during which George could not spar, nor was George allowed to leave the country to tend to his cut. He was held hostage until the fight ended, and didn't like the country he was staying at for good reasons.

That was not a severe cut. He caught an elbow in sparring and suffered a minor cut. Why does he have to leave the country to get a couple of stitches? Were there no doctors in Zaire? Foreman was held hostage because the country which had fronted the money to bring the fight to Kinsasha were concerned that Foreman would back out of the fight and not come back. And George did spar. Read 'The Fight' where Mailer explains Foreman's sparring sessions with Henry Clark and Terry Lee preceeding the fight.

[K-DOGG]

For what it's worth, Ali did not "collapse" at the end of the fight. He sat down to escape the mob of people that came in to congradulate him on knocking Geoge out. It can clearly be seen and Dr. Pachecho has said as much...and Ali did it on several other occasions after the Foreman win.

Oh, and as far as the Zairians "not likeing" Foreman, they didn't know who he was...they had known Ali from his 1964 trip to Africa and his stand against the U.S. government...several actually thought George was White until they saw him get off the plane (see "When We Were Kings"...great documentary of the fight) and he didn't help matters by bringing a German Sheppard with him....the same type of dog used by the Belgians to harass the locals while Zaire was the "Belgian Congo".

[RockyMarcianofan00]

actually people in zaire didn't like Foreman because when he came off the plane he had two german sheperds (i believe thats what they were) and German Sheperds (if thats them) were used in the slave camps before Zaire was liberated (or something like that) and they took great offense to this

[SABBATH]

This also helped him conserve energy in every fight after that. Instead of throwing crazily for 4-6 rounds, he could now pick and choose his punches more wisely and go a full 12 rounds.

Foreman sure looked out of gas against Jimmy Young and was dog tired in the Lyle fight.

If Foreman conserves his energy, and picks and chooses his punches do you think this approach would fare better against Ali, who had the most trouble with pressure fighters? Foreman's best chance against an older Ali would be to attack and swarm him and get him early. Foreman's best bet would be to get Ali on the ropes them pound on his upper arms sapping his strength. Foreman should have done this the first fight as well as step to the side and buriy his body shots around Ali's elbows to the kidney area. That is what will wear Ali down late if Foreman doesn't get him early.

Except for Foreman's 10th round KO over Moorer, Foreman notoriously didn't carry his power late into a fight. The longer an older Ali lasts against Foreman the better his chances would become.

Foreman's energy conserving style didn't work well against guys that wouldn't come to him and made Foreman force the action. Foreman specifically avoided these types of fighters late in his career because of the problems they presented.

If Foreman couldn't cut off the ring and defeat a one-dimensional slugger like Tommy Morrison who for the only time in his career chose to be a jab and runner, Big George is bound to be troubled by good boxers.