Is the "Old vs New" debate unique to boxing?

[rightsideup]

pep was such intelligent fighter yes he had some god given gifts and those gifts combined with that intelligence produced greatness. Many trainers have observed Willie and tried to duplicate moves for there fighters to use. thanks so much for sharing that footage

[juggernaut666]

Theres a lot to this issue. First off, I have no problem with assuming there are better practicioners of any art than the teacher. Also, arts all develop, they adapt and change according to circumstances. This is why the arts all had scrolls and each generation of teachers made comments and contributed to the school. Also, Funikashi was not a fighter, he was a teacher. He was skilled to the point where he could fight, but he probably trained many guys who were better fighters, even in his generation...Mas Oyama is a great example of a guy who was more of a fighter actually.

Shotokan as an art was never designed to be exclusively a fighting art. Like all arts one can take the techniques and work with them...in the case of Shotokan the advantages are the low and powerful positions, the philosophy of every techniqhe being able to break...as in a block breaks the arm, a punch the the intended target, etc. But the Okinawan styles were always more fight friendly initially because they afforded mobility.

In either case Japanese Karate at one time consisted of using a reverse punch, a front kick and little else during a sparring contest, it has evolved to a point where full contact fighting is now part of the karate do arts. The Okinawan arts that Funikashi studied were combat arts. Many good fighters came from the Okinawan islands, it was up to Funikashi to present the material in a way that comported to the needs of Japan. Japan took the traditional arts and made them accessible to all casts, which meant taking a lot of the deadly techniques out...

Of course good fighters who were part of Shotokan developed new techniques to fight with because all arts have fighters and fighters always want to fight with the art! I fought a lot of shotokan guys...I remember guys from Conde, Francisco Conde? you might know him since you are in the pocanos...I know he passed some time ago. Some guys were really mobile actually!

When it comes to karate and grappling I have never seen a grappler fight a real karate styled fighter. the proof? karate guys don't bounce up and down and even the original UFC karate guy was bouncing in the ring against the Gracie brothers...We used grabs when punching on the street when I did my karate, so we controlled the person as we were punching, shutoing, etc. My point is that karate can work when it is done properly and modified in some regards...but not with gloves on unfortunately. shotokan hitting dynamics are straight and to the point, you know his name...there was a guy who is an MMA champ who did shotokan and fights karate in MMA. The power is there, but the problem can be the lack of footwork in karate. Thats a whole another subject though! suffice to say, footwork was modified in the Okinawan Te systems quite extensively by people like Riley Hawkins.

'Funikashi was not a fighter"..Its not about fighting im going strictly technique...if I find one the instuctors that preceeded him doing the same Kata I will post it....remarkable difference,with speed alone. I actsaully rolled with him as well,not bad for a strictly striking guy,but like I said the advancements are to adapt. the different techniques were included because of the UFc actually because know everyone tries to grapple a lot.

You cant use the guy in UFC 1 really...because that is a sanctioned fight,and the flooring is different...no smart guy no matter who it is is going to satcnd flat footed with a trained grappler ready to come across the cage.....particularly when no eye rakes are allowed.


Martial Art distances don't usually need footwork on the street since the fight happens in close quarters and its not a planned fight. In all honesty ,I became involved in the Martial arts when I saw this guy take out 5 skin heads on a beach late 80's....later on in life I would hook up with him in my early 20's and that's who im under now, and hes what they call a LEGIT practioner. I remember a younger early 40's former kick boxing champ came in a gym not long ago, a good size 6'3 230 pound all muscle guy and my Sensai around 67 years old watched him work the bag ,and kindly showed him what he was doing wrong..in short they put the gloves for a friendly sparring match and Sensai totally clowned him in every which way.the guy eneded up paying him to take lessons...lol...needless to say my sensai was a 5th degree at the time and the other was 10th....also showing belts are just colors..."I taught my sensai that"...lol That is who I went to a martial arts hall of fame with ,he was inducted with actually with Frank Dux...Muhammed Ali was also too,they had a special presentation for him .

[juggernaut666]

I've seen high paced 15 rounders. You are trying to take nearly all credit and accolades from old timers... why? Skill is skill. Will is will. The wise recognize. Never said Wlad is basic..I said he's predictable and tentative. His defense is his height and jab. Get inside of the jab, connect a semi second prior to the clinch. Someone like prime Tyson is an ideal candidate. Also, mindset can compensate for size. Wlad has size, but doesn't fight like Goliath..he fights more along the mindset of David. Young Foreman had the ferocity strength and tenacity to offset the few extra pounds Wlad has. Even old foreman. Who else do I favor.. prime Louis... gets inside and throws a picture perfect left hook. Liston. Self explanatory. I even give Marciano a shot despite the large weight difference. Slip inside... feign a clinch but turn over the overhand. I know Wlad is some people's whole world but...yeah. predictability is death in fighting.

Dont know about you, but i wasnt just talking about hw..I was talking about fighters in general. Used Pep as an example of a long prime. There was more to Pep than all that... people were his puppets because he made them so. He had superior vapor like footwork and he did not just run, aside from his famous winning of a round without throwing a punch. Over 200 fights and 10 losses. 3 of which were to Saddler and at least one other almost certainly a dive. Then he had losses at the tail end of his career. This is the same guy that was in a plane crash had career ending injuries and came back almost as dominant as before with just skill and will. People tried to hook him to the body before Saddler, and for the record, Saddler did way more than hook to get Pep. He was a p4p puncher..smotherer.. and rough fighter. That fourth fight they had was a bar fight, as we're all 4. That was Saddler's strategy. His arms out style (Saddler) is what inspired Big George's so there you go. It took more than just a hook to catch the will o wisp. And frankly..if you don't see Pep's skills as ones that can translate to a modern era maybe you just aren't looking right.

The glove thing goes both ways... small gloves provide faster handspeed, but give less cover in a block. So..for that reason, Pep's defensive skills could be viewed as that much more great.

The food situation..in America at least... is horrible. Yes it has bled into professional athletes lives. Add to that all this weight cutting and crap. People over using the science. You got people Balooning up and down like adventurists. Fatton, Chavez Jr, Rios, and sadly, even Maidana. Then you have out and out pigs like Arreola and mccline. People turned into slobs by the plethora of poor choices that are provided. This is an age where for years they couldn't even find a decent heavyweight that wasn't fat as sin or severely outsized to face Wlad. Just an absolute no man's land when it comes to talent and dedication. The stock of hw is starting to climb a bit after hitting rock bottom. This new crop of in shape big heavies are inspiring that rise. At least they have dedication. Now let's see the skill.

Someone else fill in for me Ive got things to do. Finito.

I don't have to take away anything its what it tis im not a judge the statisticsa are there..There not many 15 rounders to go on,i rarly see a fast paced 15 rounder of the old days,are they there ?...yes .Are they much different from fast paced 12 rounders? no...ive gave statistics showing punch out put ,and even used HW's. you are arguing against a 5'4/5'6 guys...the fight mechanics simply aren't there if you put longer jabbers in there who knew basic cutting off ring footwork, they didn't do that much back then. Footwork has changed the most this is clear for every era that came before the last. anyone can win a round by not punching....all you do is dodge duck and run ...do you really think Mayeweather has to throw punches ? If he ran around the ring and said try and hit me he would get lynched by the fans.

[juggernaut666]

can you expand on what type of wrestling experience Lewis has without knowing his history well I assume this is prior to his boxing career......thanks in advance

It was I believe college,im having trouble finding his interview ive seen a few articles stating he had done wrestling too....here are some others hes done.....


In high school, however, Lewis did not just box. While attending Cameron Heights Collegiate High, he played fullback on football team, power forward on basketball team, and did track as a shot-putter.

[billeau2]

'Funikashi was not a fighter"..Its not about fighting im going strictly technique...if I find one the instuctors that preceeded him doing the same Kata I will post it....remarkable difference,with speed alone. I actsaully rolled with him as well,not bad for a strictly striking guy,but like I said the advancements are to adapt. the different techniques were included because of the UFc actually because know everyone tries to grapple a lot.

You cant use the guy in UFC 1 really...because that is a sanctioned fight,and the flooring is different...no smart guy no matter who it is is going to satcnd flat footed with a trained grappler ready to come across the cage.....particularly when no eye rakes are allowed.


Martial Art distances don't usually need footwork on the street since the fight happens in close quarters and its not a planned fight. In all honesty ,I became involved in the Martial arts when I saw this guy take out 5 skin heads on a beach late 80's....later on in life I would hook up with him in my early 20's and that's who im under now, and hes what they call a LEGIT practioner. I remember a younger early 40's former kick boxing champ came in a gym not long ago, a good size 6'3 230 pound all muscle guy and my Sensai around 67 years old watched him work the bag ,and kindly showed him what he was doing wrong..in short they put the gloves for a friendly sparring match and Sensai totally clowned him in every which way.the guy eneded up paying him to take lessons...lol...needless to say my sensai was a 5th degree at the time and the other was 10th....also showing belts are just colors..."I taught my sensai that"...lol That is who I went to a martial arts hall of fame with ,he was inducted with actually with Frank Dux...Muhammed Ali was also too,they had a special presentation for him .

Yes that is the point...Great teachers can demonstrate very subtle levels of technique that make all the difference in the world. Funikashi was indeed one of those men and there are of course great teachers who have come from the next generation. Ed parker is another one...agree with his system, or not, he had some interesting ideas that he was able to convey as a teacher.

IMO no smart guy will pad the hands and have a go with a grappler, you just give too much away. Ive often reflected that the karate men that I came up with, when they hit something, it usually broke. i could see my sensei perhaps getting grabbed but I could/cannot see how the grappler would deal with getting hit that hard with no pads.

It is speed and explosiveness. A real karate blow is like a timed explosion...different than the speed of a boxing combo for example. Yes karate is a modified system it designed in such a way that one does not use elaborate distancing and footwork...i tend to think of it as a tank with a turret, the legs are the tank and the hands the turret. Karate assumes there is a person who wants to attack and kill you, not spar around with you... This is one reason why kickboxing really hurt karate technique imo...yes it allowed some great competitors like Joe Lewis (the karate Lewis) Bill superfoot wallace, skipper mullins, chuck Norris, thomas Lapuppet, etc to compete, but the elegant simplicity and technical ways of karate were watered down.

belts lost all meaning when guys like the Kempo people and Hatsumi Sensei (among others) started giving people crazy ranks... When I was coming up it took me 8 years to get a black and another 3 to get a nidan...and I was at the time my teacher's highest ranked student! you have to go on experience not belt color imo. Its also the way one trains of course. But I can't say I have seen many guys with a lot of degrees on the belt who looked like they were great fighters, or teachers.

[rightsideup]

It was I believe college,im having trouble finding his interview ive seen a few articles stating he had done wrestling too....here are some others hes done.....


In high school, however, Lewis did not just box. While attending Cameron Heights Collegiate High, he played fullback on football team, power forward on basketball team, and did track as a shot-putter.

That is quite the athletic resume thank you for sharing

[juggernaut666]

Yes that is the point...Great teachers can demonstrate very subtle levels of technique that make all the difference in the world. Funikashi was indeed one of those men and there are of course great teachers who have come from the next generation. Ed parker is another one...agree with his system, or not, he had some interesting ideas that he was able to convey as a teacher.

IMO no smart guy will pad the hands and have a go with a grappler, you just give too much away. Ive often reflected that the karate men that I came up with, when they hit something, it usually broke. i could see my sensei perhaps getting grabbed but I could/cannot see how the grappler would deal with getting hit that hard with no pads.

It is speed and explosiveness. A real karate blow is like a timed explosion...different than the speed of a boxing combo for example. Yes karate is a modified system it designed in such a way that one does not use elaborate distancing and footwork...i tend to think of it as a tank with a turret, the legs are the tank and the hands the turret. Karate assumes there is a person who wants to attack and kill you, not spar around with you... This is one reason why kickboxing really hurt karate technique imo...yes it allowed some great competitors like Joe Lewis (the karate Lewis) Bill superfoot wallace, skipper mullins, chuck Norris, thomas Lapuppet, etc to compete, but the elegant simplicity and technical ways of karate were watered down.

belts lost all meaning when guys like the Kempo people and Hatsumi Sensei (among others) started giving people crazy ranks... When I was coming up it took me 8 years to get a black and another 3 to get a nidan...and I was at the time my teacher's highest ranked student! you have to go on experience not belt color imo. Its also the way one trains of course. But I can't say I have seen many guys with a lot of degrees on the belt who looked like they were great fighters, or teachers.

I think beyond experience and rank ...capabilies are what counts . Anyone can train as long as they want ,if you dont have the skills and initial real sense to handle your self all the training you do matters little . Most high ranks are meaningless , i doht believe kick boxing hurt martial arts its different style . There will be always a small percentage of legit schools ,best way to to train is really not in large numbers but one on one with a legit teacher . The aerobic dojos of push ups and sit ups and standing in class throwing meaningless punches /kicks in line simply is a waste of time . Yiou go to a dojo to learn techiques that work not throw empty punches in consession at empty air while counting them ,that b.s is not effective . I got all my traing one on one where i hsd a person to hit /grab etc......

[billeau2]

I think beyond experience and rank ...capabilies are what counts . Anyone can train as long as they want ,if you dont have the skills and initial real sense to handle your self all the training you do matters little . Most high ranks are meaningless , i doht believe kick boxing hurt martial arts its different style . There will be always a small percentage of legit schools ,best way to to train is really not in large numbers but one on one with a legit teacher . The aerobic dojos of push ups and sit ups and standing in class throwing meaningless punches /kicks in line simply is a waste of time . Yiou go to a dojo to learn techiques that work not throw empty punches in consession at empty air while counting them ,that b.s is not effective . I got all my traing one on one where i hsd a person to hit /grab etc......

Thats the difference between martial arts and sport. One does not have the luxury of being talented, strong, tough, etc. I would disagree with you that the training matters little. Some people may not be fighters and in that sense I would agree, but anyone can learn self protection. If need be they should learn how to use a weapon effectively. You take a small woman and teach her how to properly train a system employing multiple knives, she could clear a room out real quick.

Kick boxing initially hurt karate specifically imo because when guys fought they started bouncing which cut off the effective dynamics of how to use karate. I wouldn't say kick boxing hurt all martial arts, and it did eventually grow into a hybrid style... Randy Cobb came up from kick boxing, but to me kick boxing was half assed boxing and half ass kicking techniques. As a matter of fact in the early days there was a rule "8 kicks a round" and many of the guys would quickly throw the kicks so they could box lol.

The line drills are a product of commercialization and never were real martial arts training which is done in small groups, in seminars assuming one is an advanced practicioner, or one on one. When I taught regularly I would give my students a paper with line drills and exerscizes they were to practice on their own time...class time was spend on more important and in depth work on technique. One summer i went to a commercial dojo because my teacher was not teaching that summer. I was a yellow belt at the time. The class did a sparring drill where you fought down the line and I was smashing his brown belts...he chastized me (I didn't know any better this was how we fought/sparred)...it was Kim's karate lol. After class he offered me free tuition if i would wear a black belt to tournaments and fight for him.

[juggernaut666]

Thats the difference between martial arts and sport. One does not have the luxury of being talented, strong, tough, etc. I would disagree with you that the training matters little. Some people may not be fighters and in that sense I would agree, but anyone can learn self protection. If need be they should learn how to use a weapon effectively. You take a small woman and teach her how to properly train a system employing multiple knives, she could clear a room out real quick.

Kick boxing initially hurt karate specifically imo because when guys fought they started bouncing which cut off the effective dynamics of how to use karate. I wouldn't say kick boxing hurt all martial arts, and it did eventually grow into a hybrid style... Randy Cobb came up from kick boxing, but to me kick boxing was half assed boxing and half ass kicking techniques. As a matter of fact in the early days there was a rule "8 kicks a round" and many of the guys would quickly throw the kicks so they could box lol.

The line drills are a product of commercialization and never were real martial arts training which is done in small groups, in seminars assuming one is an advanced practicioner, or one on one. When I taught regularly I would give my students a paper with line drills and exerscizes they were to practice on their own time...class time was spend on more important and in depth work on technique. One summer i went to a commercial dojo because my teacher was not teaching that summer. I was a yellow belt at the time. The class did a sparring drill where you fought down the line and I was smashing his brown belts...he chastized me (I didn't know any better this was how we fought/sparred)...it was Kim's karate lol. After class he offered me free tuition if i would wear a black belt to tournaments and fight for him.

Training matters little meaning high ranking guys...yes any training helps....but I was talking about the majority black belts or higher rankings that should know what they are doing or don't have the ability but they teach themselves which is ironic. In my experience the majority of the better guys able to handle themselves were the lower rankers.Then again its the techniques in the lower ranks that you actually use more...the higher ranking techniques is just more knowledge....as they say use the simple techniques and what works. the yellow belt story is funny because I smashed everyone in the same way as a white belt...the difference is my sensai at that time kept me away from his prize student after that in sparring.... lol


The other thing you said is also good...I wore my sensai's black belt at a grappling tournament not even in his style or mine it was a straight jui jitsu without leg submissions which hampered me b/c that's what I trained for for the tourney since I was so out of shape....needless to say I didn't wear it bc I entered the no gi event b/c I was about to faint with a 100 degree room temp I had to sit in for hours and hadn't trained in 3 months and actually entered the younger age bracket of below 35 that they had as beating up 40 over isn't my thing either...lol......I drew with the kid who took first place ...it was at his own gym it was a P.A championship....It was double elimination....funny thing is everyone else got a to go 2 times and I didn't ? This has happened in other different kinds of tourneys to me go figure? lol

[billeau2]

[.I drew with the kid who took first place ...it was at his own gym it was a P.A championship....It was double elimination....funny thing is everyone else got a to go 2 times and I didn't ? This has happened in other different kinds of tourneys to me go figure? lol[/QUOTE]

I hear you. We trained to grab when we used a reverse punch and to hit through the target ... I was the chief instructor for my college and included two major navy bases...so I am training these guys to fight and to compete. They would go to the tournaments as they were coming up and clean out their divisions...literally having to fight each other. Naturally I was very proud of them, and the it was nice having the other guys come from base because of our reputation...there was one big problem though! I always got disqualified for grabbing, or hitting to hard. I didn't mean to do it but I could not adjust when we did point fighting. It was a running joke But when we fought full contact everything was ok.