Is the "Old vs New" debate unique to boxing?

[billeau2]

Gichin Funakoshi was born in Shuri, Okinawa in 1868. As a boy, he was trained by two famous masters of that time. Each trained him in a different Okinawan martial art. From Yasutsune Azato he learned Shuri-te. From Yasutsune Itosu, he learned Naha-te. It would be the melding of these two styles that would one day become Shotokan karate.

Funakoshi-sensei is the man who introduced karate to Japan. In 1917 he was asked to perform his martial art at a physical education exhibition sponsored by the Ministry of Education. He was asked back again in 1922 for another exhibition. He was asked back a third time, but this was a special performance. He demonstrated his art for the emporer and the royal family! Atfer this, Funakoshi-sensei decided to remain in Japan and teach and promote his art.

Gichin Funakoshi passed away in 1957 at the age of 88. Aside from creating Shotokan karate and introducing it to Japan and the world, he also wrote the very book on the subject of karate, "Ryukyu Kempo: Karate-do". He also wrote "Karate-Do Kyohan" - The Master Text, the "handbook" of Shotokan and he wrote his autobiography, "Karate-Do: My Way of Life". These books and his art are a fitting legacy for this unassuming and gentle man.





This is a photo of a memorial to Gichin Funakoshi. This memorial to Master Funakoshi was erected at Enkaku-ji Temple in Kamakura in 1968. The calligraphy at the right is by the master; that at the left is by Asahina Sogen, chief priest of the temple, and reads, "Karate ni sente nashi" (There is no first attack in karate).

This is my lineage that im breached off and represent! in ANY competition! My sensai's ..sensai, Sensai learner directly from him.

Funakoshi remarkably was accepted into Japanese high society as an Okinawan, quite an Achievement in itself. Of all the "Do" guys he was the probably the nicest.

[juggernaut666]

Funakoshi remarkably was accepted into Japanese high society as an Okinawan, quite an Achievement in itself. Of all the "Do" guys he was the probably the nicest.

His style has been fit into modern times as well will minor adjustmenrts...many of that old school things he did are now much more looser where it was hard techniques and harder techniques now where its more effective being looser ones that adjust to grapplers and overall street fights...just another example of why some arts have to be motified now the same as fighting. not sure if you've seen him on video...but as good as he was this generation that took over the master teachings is even sharper and stronger of at least out of one branch....The head Sensai he has 3 branches of lineage who are certified...the head teacher is the one who has exceed this art...I would not make this up.Unlike "some" ppl who refuse to give any info..You know the old saying those who accuse those to lie are usually one themselves!..lol

[billeau2]

His style has been fit into modern times as well will minor adjustmenrts...many of that old school things he did are now much more looser where it was hard techniques and harder techniques now where its more effective being looser ones that adjust to grapplers and overall street fights...just another example of why some arts have to be motified now the same as fighting. not sure if you've seen him on video...but as good as he was this generation that took over the master teachings is even sharper and stronger of at least out of one branch....The head Sensai he has 3 branches of lineage who are certified...the head teacher is the one who has exceed this art...I would not make this up.Unlike "some" ppl who refuse to give any info..You know the old saying those who accuse those to lie are usually one themselves!..lol

Theres a lot to this issue. First off, I have no problem with assuming there are better practicioners of any art than the teacher. Also, arts all develop, they adapt and change according to circumstances. This is why the arts all had scrolls and each generation of teachers made comments and contributed to the school. Also, Funikashi was not a fighter, he was a teacher. He was skilled to the point where he could fight, but he probably trained many guys who were better fighters, even in his generation...Mas Oyama is a great example of a guy who was more of a fighter actually.

Shotokan as an art was never designed to be exclusively a fighting art. Like all arts one can take the techniques and work with them...in the case of Shotokan the advantages are the low and powerful positions, the philosophy of every techniqhe being able to break...as in a block breaks the arm, a punch the the intended target, etc. But the Okinawan styles were always more fight friendly initially because they afforded mobility.

In either case Japanese Karate at one time consisted of using a reverse punch, a front kick and little else during a sparring contest, it has evolved to a point where full contact fighting is now part of the karate do arts. The Okinawan arts that Funikashi studied were combat arts. Many good fighters came from the Okinawan islands, it was up to Funikashi to present the material in a way that comported to the needs of Japan. Japan took the traditional arts and made them accessible to all casts, which meant taking a lot of the deadly techniques out...

Of course good fighters who were part of Shotokan developed new techniques to fight with because all arts have fighters and fighters always want to fight with the art! I fought a lot of shotokan guys...I remember guys from Conde, Francisco Conde? you might know him since you are in the pocanos...I know he passed some time ago. Some guys were really mobile actually!

When it comes to karate and grappling I have never seen a grappler fight a real karate styled fighter. the proof? karate guys don't bounce up and down and even the original UFC karate guy was bouncing in the ring against the Gracie brothers...We used grabs when punching on the street when I did my karate, so we controlled the person as we were punching, shutoing, etc. My point is that karate can work when it is done properly and modified in some regards...but not with gloves on unfortunately. shotokan hitting dynamics are straight and to the point, you know his name...there was a guy who is an MMA champ who did shotokan and fights karate in MMA. The power is there, but the problem can be the lack of footwork in karate. Thats a whole another subject though! suffice to say, footwork was modified in the Okinawan Te systems quite extensively by people like Riley Hawkins.

[Anthony342]

I assume you're referring to when Royce Gracie fought karate black belt Minoki Ichihara in UFC 2. Sounds like it, anyway.

The later guy who became champ sounds like Lyoto Machida, former UFC heavyweight champion, who was a karate, as well as a BJJ black belt. He's been struggling in his career more recently, as of late.

Anything can work when done properly. And that's proven these days in the ring and the cage, a modern and somewhat safer way to prove the effectiveness of any martial art. Once someone of that art becomes dominant, then it gets taken more seriously. Like BJJ, after Royce and Rickson's domination early on, wrestling after Randy Couture, Chuck Lidell and later Matt Hughes were dominant, muay thai, with Anderson Silva using it, along with BJJ, to be middleweight champion for 7 years and then more fighters started using boxing, as it's been used more effectively in MMA in recent years.

[Syf]

Going 15 rnds means little it just slows the pace down i broke this down already !

Predictable along with better genetics will beat less stronger,less effective .You also said Wlad is basic ,however he is fast and technical and his 3 range jabs confuse the opposition very easily ,he also uses superior positioning which is why opponents usually dont land clean shots often they simply cant stand in front and often rush in forcing the clinch which avoids a k.o but doesnt win them the fight.

Not sure why the PEP convo comes in,he was like 5'4 or something and fought other miniatures ,when they started hooking to his body he started to not have as much success moving losing to Sadler a few times..,back then that was considered genius ....today we scratch our heads and say why dont hey just do this or that like any common boxer would. Simple advancements !Was PEP good?yea but lets be real if you make two puppets on a stick with popscicle arms and twist and turn them their mobility is limited to the puppet itself...Pep simply stood in front of his opposition and basically just bobbed up and down or ran around the ring playing tag me ....is this good boxing? Yea if your opponents are also puppets . Was there more involved with positioning ?Yes ,but its still limited to what his opposition had skill wise .You also negate fighters are wearing more padded gloves which in the long haul add up on making arms heavier anyone who disagrees hss never fought with less padded 6/8 OZ before ,big differences in just putting them on ,the punches come considerably faster.

Should PEP be considered an ATG ?Yes ,he did what he did in HIS era and should go in the history books!


The other stuff ,an ATHLETE doesnt have or follow the AVERAGE persons diet so im not sure what high fructose corn syrup proves here ,thats been around a long time and as a guy whos been into physical fitness for 3 decades i can tell you ppl are stronger and more fit who actually train!

I've seen high paced 15 rounders. You are trying to take nearly all credit and accolades from old timers... why? Skill is skill. Will is will. The wise recognize. Never said Wlad is basic..I said he's predictable and tentative. His defense is his height and jab. Get inside of the jab, connect a semi second prior to the clinch. Someone like prime Tyson is an ideal candidate. Also, mindset can compensate for size. Wlad has size, but doesn't fight like Goliath..he fights more along the mindset of David. Young Foreman had the ferocity strength and tenacity to offset the few extra pounds Wlad has. Even old foreman. Who else do I favor.. prime Louis... gets inside and throws a picture perfect left hook. Liston. Self explanatory. I even give Marciano a shot despite the large weight difference. Slip inside... feign a clinch but turn over the overhand. I know Wlad is some people's whole world but...yeah. predictability is death in fighting.

Dont know about you, but i wasnt just talking about hw..I was talking about fighters in general. Used Pep as an example of a long prime. There was more to Pep than all that... people were his puppets because he made them so. He had superior vapor like footwork and he did not just run, aside from his famous winning of a round without throwing a punch. Over 200 fights and 10 losses. 3 of which were to Saddler and at least one other almost certainly a dive. Then he had losses at the tail end of his career. This is the same guy that was in a plane crash had career ending injuries and came back almost as dominant as before with just skill and will. People tried to hook him to the body before Saddler, and for the record, Saddler did way more than hook to get Pep. He was a p4p puncher..smotherer.. and rough fighter. That fourth fight they had was a bar fight, as we're all 4. That was Saddler's strategy. His arms out style (Saddler) is what inspired Big George's so there you go. It took more than just a hook to catch the will o wisp. And frankly..if you don't see Pep's skills as ones that can translate to a modern era maybe you just aren't looking right.

The glove thing goes both ways... small gloves provide faster handspeed, but give less cover in a block. So..for that reason, Pep's defensive skills could be viewed as that much more great.

The food situation..in America at least... is horrible. Yes it has bled into professional athletes lives. Add to that all this weight cutting and crap. People over using the science. You got people Balooning up and down like adventurists. Fatton, Chavez Jr, Rios, and sadly, even Maidana. Then you have out and out pigs like Arreola and mccline. People turned into slobs by the plethora of poor choices that are provided. This is an age where for years they couldn't even find a decent heavyweight that wasn't fat as sin or severely outsized to face Wlad. Just an absolute no man's land when it comes to talent and dedication. The stock of hw is starting to climb a bit after hitting rock bottom. This new crop of in shape big heavies are inspiring that rise. At least they have dedication. Now let's see the skill.

Someone else fill in for me Ive got things to do. Finito.

[Syf]

Anything can work when done properly..

Very true... Sifu Lee said it right when he said it's mostly about the individual, not the art!

[billeau2]

I assume you're referring to when Royce Gracie fought karate black belt Minoki Ichihara in UFC 2. Sounds like it, anyway.

The later guy who became champ sounds like Lyoto Machida, former UFC heavyweight champion, who was a karate, as well as a BJJ black belt. He's been struggling in his career more recently, as of late.

Anything can work when done properly. And that's proven these days in the ring and the cage, a modern and somewhat safer way to prove the effectiveness of any martial art. Once someone of that art becomes dominant, then it gets taken more seriously. Like BJJ, after Royce and Rickson's domination early on, wrestling after Randy Couture, Chuck Lidell and later Matt Hughes were dominant, muay thai, with Anderson Silva using it, along with BJJ, to be middleweight champion for 7 years and then more fighters started using boxing, as it's been used more effectively in MMA in recent years.

Thanks Anthony! yes, machida indeed and it would have to have been Ichihara. I agree with you on your points as well.

There are good and bad adjustments. One thing that really screwed up karate was kick boxing. The body dynamics just don't fit Karate so kick boxing became bad kicks and bad punches. The original guys used it to compete more...Lewis, Norris and Wallace for example, but in my opinion the result of this was not good for karate training. Muay Thai is a great art, another art that is misunderstood in that to this day there is no record of a legitamely sanctioned professional Thai fighter losing a match to anyone. The guys that the Gracies fought were kick boxers! Rorian fought a bunch of them actually.

[billeau2]

I've seen high paced 15 rounders. You are trying to take nearly all credit and accolades from old timers... why? Skill is skill. Will is will. The wise recognize. Never said Wlad is basic..I said he's predictable and tentative. His defense is his height and jab. Get inside of the jab, connect a semi second prior to the clinch. Someone like prime Tyson is an ideal candidate. Also, mindset can compensate for size. Wlad has size, but doesn't fight like Goliath..he fights more along the mindset of David. Young Foreman had the ferocity strength and tenacity to offset the few extra pounds Wlad has. Even old foreman. Who else do I favor.. prime Louis... gets inside and throws a picture perfect left hook. Liston. Self explanatory. I even give Marciano a shot despite the large weight difference. Slip inside... feign a clinch but turn over the overhand. I know Wlad is some people's whole world but...yeah. predictability is death in fighting.

Dont know about you, but i wasnt just talking about hw..I was talking about fighters in general. Used Pep as an example of a long prime. There was more to Pep than all that... people were his puppets because he made them so. He had superior vapor like footwork and he did not just run, aside from his famous winning of a round without throwing a punch. Over 200 fights and 10 losses. 3 of which were to Saddler and at least one other almost certainly a dive. Then he had losses at the tail end of his career. This is the same guy that was in a plane crash had career ending injuries and came back almost as dominant as before with just skill and will. People tried to hook him to the body before Saddler, and for the record, Saddler did way more than hook to get Pep. He was a p4p puncher..smotherer.. and rough fighter. That fourth fight they had was a bar fight, as we're all 4. That was Saddler's strategy. His arms out style (Saddler) is what inspired Big George's so there you go. It took more than just a hook to catch the will o wisp. And frankly..if you don't see Pep's skills as ones that can translate to a modern era maybe you just aren't looking right.

The glove thing goes both ways... small gloves provide faster handspeed, but give less cover in a block. So..for that reason, Pep's defensive skills could be viewed as that much more great.

The food situation..in America at least... is horrible. Yes it has bled into professional athletes lives. Add to that all this weight cutting and crap. People over using the science. You got people Balooning up and down like adventurists. Fatton, Chavez Jr, Rios, and sadly, even Maidana. Then you have out and out pigs like Arreola and mccline. People turned into slobs by the plethora of poor choices that are provided. This is an age where for years they couldn't even find a decent heavyweight that wasn't fat as sin or severely outsized to face Wlad. Just an absolute no man's land when it comes to talent and dedication. The stock of hw is starting to climb a bit after hitting rock bottom. This new crop of in shape big heavies are inspiring that rise. At least they have dedication. Now let's see the skill.

Someone else fill in for me Ive got things to do. Finito.

Great post. Ray was talking about Pep's ability to catch any telegraphs with the shoulders, elbows and turning the hand over before the punch, great fighter in any era. Agree with the other points as stated.

[Syf]

Great post. Ray was talking about Pep's ability to catch any telegraphs with the shoulders, elbows and turning the hand over before the punch, great fighter in any era. Agree with the other points as stated.

Not a few weeks ago I happened upon this video analysis by a tai chi guy. He points out how pep used wrestling moves like elbow passes and ect. Also points out a bagua (PA kua) moment. Come to think of it I can see some bagua in Pep.

Supports the concept that a fighter that has his stuff together is tapping in to a common pool of martial art movement and dynamic lore. Stretching all the way back to its founding.

[billeau2]

Not a few weeks ago I happened upon this video analysis by a tai chi guy. He points out how pep used wrestling moves like elbow passes and ect. Also points out a bagua (PA kua) moment. Come to think of it I can see some bagua in Pep.

Supports the concept that a fighter that has his stuff together is tapping in to a common pool of martial art movement and dynamic lore. Stretching all the way back to its founding.

Nice Vid... Yes the movments cross all lines for sure.