Ali vs Wilt

[Elroy1]

cus was also suppose to guide mulitime world handball champ Jim Jacobs to a fight with Archie Moore and nothing became of that

I was sledged recently because I disagreed with one thing PEter Fury said.. But it's ok for you to sledge Cus Damato?

Double standards for nut bags and realists!

[rightsideup]

I was sledged recently because I disagreed with one thing PEter Fury said.. But it's ok for you to sledge Cus Damato?

Double standards for nut bags and realists!

it is not a slam against cus that either jacobs or wilt never went thru with there fights it just the way things transpired

[Elroy1]

I think the nut bags have considerably mistaken the main points of this thread.

It's not so much whether Wilt personally could defeat Ali personally I don't think, it's really about the role of size (reach, height and weight) and the concominant balance necessary to make that size work for them against ALL smaller boxers where there is ALSO a skill/experience discrepancy.

And the bottom line is simply this...

A BUMMY boxer can pose MORE problems to a MORE SKILLED SMALLER boxer, simply by virtue of being much larger.

^^ There is no plausible nut bag alternative to this evidence based statement.

I don't KNOW if Wilt could ever have beaten Ali with such minimal training, but considering the biggest non-bummy opponent Ali ever won against was Alvin Lewis, then it's WELL within the bounds of possibility.

I mean the guy was a human punching bag even for the tiniest and crappest of opponents at times, to suppose Wilt wouldn't be one of his best opponents in light of crushing evidence is outrageous!

[Joe Beamish]

history shows that this requires a certain personality -- So are you saying Cus who imop was the smartest trainer in history was clueless of Wilt making a championship run quickly in the 60's? The same Cus who saw Tyson for one minute and said that was the next champion even at age 13/15 because he saw what he had to wok with?


1960's boxers < 1980's boxers

If you read up on it, Cus entertained the idea that Wilt MIGHT have been a good boxer, if he had focused on it. This is very different from spotting a young monstrous street fighting thug such as Mike Tyson and declaring him a champ in the making. Cus categorically liked the idea of basketball players becoming boxers due to their agility and fitness.

Wilt was able to compete at the top level in every sport he attempted. But this is a far cry from defeating Ali. To be champ, you have to be focused on that goal; Wilt wasn't.

And it was Wilt who backed out of the Ali fight. Puncher's chance? Sure. But I wouldnt have put my money on Wilt.

[Elroy1]

If you read up on it, Cus entertained the idea that Wilt MIGHT have been a good boxer, if he had focused on it. This is very different from spotting a young monstrous street fighting thug such as Mike Tyson and declaring him a champ in the making. Cus categorically liked the idea of basketball players becoming boxers due to their agility and fitness.

Wilt was able to compete at the top level in every sport he attempted. But this is a far cry from defeating Ali. To be champ, you have to be focused on that goal; Wilt wasn't.

And it was Wilt who backed out of the Ali fight. Puncher's chance? Sure. But I wouldnt have put my money on Wilt.

Ok sure..

But what about this one... Joe Frazier!

With just basic training, focussed on Frazier, could he have beaten Frazier do you think? I would say yes!

[sonnyboyx2]

I think the nut bags have considerably mistaken the main points of this thread.

It's not so much whether Wilt personally could defeat Ali personally I don't think, it's really about the role of size (reach, height and weight) and the concominant balance necessary to make that size work for them against ALL smaller boxers where there is ALSO a skill/experience discrepancy.

And the bottom line is simply this...

A BUMMY boxer can pose MORE problems to a MORE SKILLED SMALLER boxer, simply by virtue of being much larger.

^^ There is no plausible nut bag alternative to this evidence based statement.

I don't KNOW if Wilt could ever have beaten Ali with such minimal training, but considering the biggest non-bummy opponent Ali ever won against was Alvin Lewis, then it's WELL within the bounds of possibility.

I mean the guy was a human punching bag even for the tiniest and crappest of opponents at times, to suppose Wilt wouldn't be one of his best opponents in light of crushing evidence is outrageous!

What a climb down LOL

[Anthony342]

Unfortunately Dillman went "tootsiepatz!" before he got into deciphering kata and pretending that Okinawan fighting men were all Chinese medical doctors with secret anatomical understandings, he was a decent karate practicioner. Ali knew him because Dillman would come to Ali's camps during training. Dillman actually came up with some creative isights into certain root Okinawan karate forms...but like most, he learned a little and thought he learned a lot. His methods of hitting points have been pretty thoroughly debunked.

The biggest problem with pressure points is that they are unreliable. If we take Japanese armour and see that there are natural seams where the body has to articulate, we can see why those areas are targeted...nothing mystical about it. I know that if I catch you under your arm on a swordpass, you have a hole there because you need to move your arm...unfortunately its also where your brachial artery is... When one takes targeting a step farther and postulates that a chain reaction can occur hitting certain points in a certain sequence...usually what one sees is one who is under the power of suggestion and/or, the last point hit...like at the base of your skull is described as being "lightly tapped' when in fact the hand is brought down with a lot of force, hence the "light tap" that caused the KO.

So thats where Dillman is at these days. i would be more respectful but for the fact that his woo woo has been thoroughly debunked and is little more than the chi master who challenged the mma fighter...you saw that vid right? is not let me know!

Nope. But if you post the link, I'll watch it. I did see the guy who claimed to be a chi master and fought some karate or kickboxer guy and got his butt TKO'd. And before this, there was a demonstration of his supposed skill with his students where he doesn't even touch any of them. Kind of reminded me of Hermes Franca fighting that dude who claimed to have this high rank at some martial arts and all these titles, so fought and beat him for a dollar to shut him up haha.

[Anthony342]

Elroy is an example of an MDNB, a Modern Day Nut Bag.

[Anthony342]

I think the nut bags have considerably mistaken the main points of this thread.

It's not so much whether Wilt personally could defeat Ali personally I don't think, it's really about the role of size (reach, height and weight) and the concominant balance necessary to make that size work for them against ALL smaller boxers where there is ALSO a skill/experience discrepancy.

And the bottom line is simply this...

A BUMMY boxer can pose MORE problems to a MORE SKILLED SMALLER boxer, simply by virtue of being much larger.

^^ There is no plausible nut bag alternative to this evidence based statement.

I don't KNOW if Wilt could ever have beaten Ali with such minimal training, but considering the biggest non-bummy opponent Ali ever won against was Alvin Lewis, then it's WELL within the bounds of possibility.

I mean the guy was a human punching bag even for the tiniest and crappest of opponents at times, to suppose Wilt wouldn't be one of his best opponents in light of crushing evidence is outrageous!

Yet Holyfield gave larger opponents trouble.

And all those BUMMY larger opponents that gave Royce Gracie trouble? Oh right, they didn't, until he came back from a 5 year retirement and lost to a very skilled Sakuraba.

[Elroy1]

I do know about the Gracie brothers and the early series of UFC and to use that as a measure is absolutely moronic because the codes involved were widely different.

Back to boxing, yes, Holyfield was very often the lighter man and despite his roids was never really the biggest HW either.

He beat larger opponents, but if you look at the best good opponent who was really big he beat (Hasim Rahman), he was still only 6'2" just 250lbs and was WINNING against Holyfield until a stoppage occurred due to a freak haematoma.

And against the technical giants who were good+hefty and tall, his record is 1-3-1 and we all know the Lewis draw was bogus and I would argue he never really convincingly beat Bowe either.

Fury is in that league, atleast as good as Bowe imo.

I take nothing away from Holyfield at all, it's just that he is up to his limit with Fury.

It's kind of like Juggernaut said, Holyfield is about the limit of what nostalgically inclined posters can BELIEVABLY promote as a match for Fury.