Ali vs Wilt

[sonnyboyx2]

Yes the Ali "reflexes" was one of the myths that I was alluding to.

In fact in absolute terms (relative to the modern HW division), Ali has no reflexes, no chin, no skills and only running style footwork.

He is totally eclipsed in all these things by all the comparable sized cruiser heavies today like David Haye etc AND is also much weaker and less athletic as well.

In my opinion it is impossible for a nostalgist not to understand this. I am certain I can get a person who has suffered multiple strokes to understand it with enough effort.

The only conclusion I can see possible is they don't WANT to understand it because it threatens their closed world view.

How do you explain David Haye beating Nikolay Valuev?
How do you explain Holyfield vs Valuev?.. Holyfield was robbed.
Valuev would be vastly superior at boxing than Wilt Chamberlain.

[juggernaut666]

Yes the Ali "reflexes" was one of the myths that I was alluding to.

In fact in absolute terms (relative to the modern HW division), Ali has no reflexes, no chin, no skills and only running style footwork.

He is totally eclipsed in all these things by all the comparable sized cruiser heavies today like David Haye etc AND is also much weaker and less athletic as well.

In my opinion it is impossible for a nostalgist not to understand this. I am certain I can get a person who has suffered multiple strokes to understand it with enough effort.

The only conclusion I can see possible is they don't WANT to understand it because it threatens their closed world view.

Yea its like the convo i had on you tube some kid trying to tell me how small Cunninham was and mocked his size in saying Fury couldn't handle a cruiser weight .... little did he know Cunninham was 6'3 210 pounds 82 inch reach bigger than most Alis opponents were and when knock down comparisons were done with the 6'0 180 pound Cooper who wasnt even in his prime.....he quiickly stopped replying ..... this was before he switched subjects when he was clueless how exactly Fraziers 5'11 73 inch reach body would possibly land any solid head shot on a 6'9 85 inch reach giant let alone get even near him! It would be like putting Ali on stilts along with increasing the punch power ......in the end you will never win any thing when you try and do realistic analysis in boxing ,it doesnt work.....its like ray trying to convince us he was on the in with Tyson except that would be false!

[sonnyboyx2]

This I concur, it is in fact true Tyson's words- Klitschko never fought an opponent like me. He was bigger than even the comparable sized opponents he previously fought and moved with far more swiftness and grace than any of those as well, which is why I wouldn't try to rip off Fury's victory and do have Fury as the slight front runner in a rematch.

He hasn't needed to expand his repertoire in a long time and so wasn't equipped to, he needs to train like this for Fury it's clear.



I can agree with this one mid-fight but I can also envision an inspiration from this loss now for Wlad also.




This same logic also applies to Klitschko now in a rematch. Klitschko may now go back to the drawing board like he has done in the past and reinvent.

This is why I think that a rematch would be very exciting and difficult to predict.

Funny thing is I think the old aggressive Klitschko pre-Steward would have done better with Fury who probably doesn't hit hard enough to stop a bullrushing Wlad or the chin to take the power once it's forced through.



I get your drift here and I agree.

Except I didn't think much of your choice of analogy using Geroge Foreman. ANY skillset is superior over young George's imo. It's just a question of whether you have enough physical attributes to make your skills work against him.

I think Klitschko has done and could alter his style to conquer Fury IN THEORY. Whether he can in fact I dunno.

The good thing is here that we will get to see if he can or not in several months time!!

I suggest you watch the "Post Fight press conference". Tyson Fury's trainer Peter Fury claims. "It has nothing to do with height and weight and size", it is all to do with boxing ability.

Take a look at Holyfield vs Valuev or check out Hong-man Choi.. what you are also ignorant of in this debate is, "Heart".... Muhammad Ali had Heart, Chamberlain didn't. Otherwise he would have went ahead with the fight.

Cus D'Amato actually told Chamberlain, "He would never be able to be successful as a boxer, but had a chance of winning the ONE fight"..

Wilt knew he stood zero chance of beating Ali, ranked fighters of that period offered to spar with Chamberlain, yet Wilt alway's refused. Wilt wasn't ******, he knew he had no chance.

[Elroy1]

How do you explain David Haye beating Nikolay Valuev?
How do you explain Holyfield vs Valuev?.. Holyfield was robbed.
Valuev would be vastly superior at boxing than Wilt Chamberlain.

Do you even read any of my posts before you reply?

99% of you nut bags expect me to give a fully thought out reply to EVERYTHING or else I'm "ducking" you.

Yet you guys ask totally irrelevant stuff that I have pre-answered thousands of times over.

Haye beat Valuev and Holyfield came close because their exceptional qualities were able to overcome the size discrepancy.

Agreed, Valuev was a better boxer than an entry level Chamberlain, maybe any Chamberlain.

I never even SAID explicitly that Chamberlain as he was could definitely beat Ali, only that he would be among the best opponents he ever faced, CERTAINLY better than Joe Frazier and that with relatively little training, could possibly defeat Ali with a minimalist style (like Valuev's).

Further, whilst he may never have Valuev's pedigree or massiveness, he would likely have developed far greater speed and possibly footwork had he trained hard, given his already qualities as a basketballer.

And lastly, Ali was definitely no Haye..

Haye is near impossible to hit clean.
Ali is a magnet for punches.

Haye destroyed many giants of objectively good quality
Ali struggled to beat tiny boxers of bummy quality, completely objectively.

Ali is a featherfist,
Haye is a powerpuncher

And so on...

Chamberlain would not have to worry so much about missing his reflexless opponent as Valuev did with regards to Haye.

[Elroy1]

I suggest you watch the "Post Fight press conference". Tyson Fury's trainer Peter Fury claims. "It has nothing to do with height and weight and size", it is all to do with boxing ability.

Take a look at Holyfield vs Valuev or check out Hong-man Choi.. what you are also ignorant of in this debate is, "Heart".... Muhammad Ali had Heart, Chamberlain didn't. Otherwise he would have went ahead with the fight.

Cus D'Amato actually told Chamberlain, "He would never be able to be successful as a boxer, but had a chance of winning the ONE fight"..

Peter Fury was flat out wrong about that! He has said some good true things lately but that was not one of them..

Size/Reach/Weight was EXACTLY half the story of Tyson's victory! Without it, he couldn't have pulled it regardless of his skills.

[sonnyboyx2]

peter fury was flat out wrong about that! He has said some good true things lately but that was not one of them..

Size/reach/weight was exactly half the story of tyson's victory! Without it, he couldn't have pulled it regardless of his skills.

lol ........

[juggernaut666]

Peter Fury was flat out wrong about that! He has said some good true things lately but that was not one of them..

Size/Reach/Weight was EXACTLY half the story of Tyson's victory! Without it, he couldn't have pulled it regardless of his skills.

Are you really attempting a realistic convo with funny sonny? This guy tells more stories than a mom does for a year trying to put her kids to bed ! He even brought Hon Choi into it?

[Anthony342]

get green for that one too...lol....take it easy on us Wlad fans though....

Yeah I like Wlad too, but what the hell was that. He hardly even threw the jab or many combinations. He at least used to throw a basic 1-2. Dude needed that round 11 and 12 pace from the start. Hope he keeps that higher pace in future fights. I heard this postpones and hurts chances of unification fight. Tony Page said recently that if Wlad and Fury rematch, 1 or 2 of the corrupt governing bodies might strip Fury of his belt or belts. At the least, he'll still have a legit Ring belt and possibly WBO or WBA belt to defend. Hope that's not the case though.

[Elroy1]

Are you really attempting a realistic convo with funny sonny? This guy tells more stories than a mom does for a year trying to put her kids to bed ! He even brought Hon Choi into it?

I get ****** in by these "real trolls" on occasion.

Given his last dismissive response, I wont bother again.

[Elroy1]

Yeah I like Wlad too, but what the hell was that. He hardly even threw the jab or many combinations. He at least used to throw a basic 1-2. Dude needed that round 11 and 12 pace from the start. Hope he keeps that higher pace in future fights. I heard this postpones and hurts chances of unification fight. Tony Page said recently that if Wlad and Fury rematch, 1 or 2 of the corrupt governing bodies might strip Fury of his belt or belts. At the least, he'll still have a legit Ring belt and possibly WBO or WBA belt to defend. Hope that's not the case though.

That is simply ridiculous! Not WBC corrupt but still corrupt.

Fury won them fair and square and so what if Wladimir wants to rematch, what right does that give a governing body to strip the titles from either of those two!

Unbelievable!

Boxing should go ****ing Tourney style! That's the truth.