Joe Frazier was not a great fighter

[Skydog]

Also, even though he was kidding, it was not a gift decision by the judges. Frazier straight up dominated rounds 3-9, and Bonavena had some good moments in round 10.

[Heckler]

Only one fighter won the largest, most important boxing match in history... and that was Joe Frazier.

[butterfly1964]

Joe Frazier was not a great fighter

A honest and unbiased look at the overrated career of Joe Frazier.

“Joe’s gonna be smokin’ an’ I ain’t even jokin but I’ll be peckin’ and a pokin’ and I’ll pour water on that smokin’”

Let’s briefly go over the career of Frazier and the opponents he fought.

Mike Bruce (10-29). Frazier’s “hall of fame” career starts off on the right foot, correct? Actually, incorrect. In his second fight, Frazier meets up with this no name punk Bruce, and immediately gets floored in the first round. Against a bum like this! You need not look to the Foreman fights to see that Frazier was chinny. He was exposed right here. Frazier manages to get up off the canvas (where he’ll spend a lot of time in his career) to knock out this ham and egger in Round 3. Bruce was starched by Cleveland Williams in one round, and he even lost to legendary tomato can Chuck Wepner. Other stellar losses on his resume include Sonny Andrews (4-12 career record), Charlie Emperor Harris (12-30, he certainly wasn’t an emperor of boxing, maybe of getting knocked out), and Stamford Harris, and Tommy Hicks.

So, there you have it. Frazier is already shown to have a glass chin, and this will factor into his manager Yank Durham’s decisions on who Frazier fights in the future. Needless to say, Frazier will side step quite a few heavy hitters, instead choosing to beat up on guys he already took care of, and fighters that hit like girls. Anyways, after padding his record with guys like Charley Polite and Memphis Al Jones, Frazier faces his first real test in:

Oscar Bonavena (58-9). What happens? Frazier gets decked twice, almost losing by TKO. He barely escapes the round and manages to get a gift decision by the judges. People claim that Frazier was green while Oscar was a veteran, but Oscar only had 11 more pro fights than Frazier. Also, Bonavena as a fighter was quite overrated, simply because he fought in the 70’s. He was nothing more than an okay fighter with a ****** and akward style. He
wasn’t very big, proving that Frazier can’t win the big one against skilled men larger than himself, so he fights easy guys all the time.

I’ll take the time now to discuss Frazier’s chin and his defense. It’s pointless to mention every single opponent and the times they rocked Frazier, because I’d be here all night. EVERY guy he fought landed good hard shots on him, and stunned and staggered him. This includes good fighters like Ali, and even poor ones like Stander and Ramos. Now, you must wonder, how can all these guys land such clean shots all the time? It was because Frazier’s pathetic excuse for defense. He had none. Bobbing and weaving never did much for him, except tire him out. He was basically a stationary target, and many opponents took advantage of this. But as mentioned, none of them could really hit, and Yank Durham should win some kind of award for making such a pathetic fighter like Frazier look good. Durham was one of the smartest managers ever. He even managed to weasel his way out of fights, as will be discussed a little later. Anyways, back to Joe’s career. He beats up on an extremely old and shot Eddie Machen, and mows through stumble****s like Doug Jones and Jefferson Davis, before moving on to:

George Johnson (19-24). “Scrap Iron” Johnson was his nickname. Seems fitting. You can find scraps like him in the local dumpster, which is where this fight took place. Some ****hole. Anyways, Georgie was obviously robbed of a decision here. Not many know the story of this fight. Frazier called GJ the toughest fighter he ever fought, and with good reason. The man beat the hell out of him all night. The fans went crazy every time George landed a punch (which, obviously, was quite often). But the judges were most likely bribed and gave the decision to an up and coming fighter rather than a guy with a losing career record. Yank probably paid them money. He certainly had enough, as the guy was a crook. I wouldn’t be surprised if Frazier was in on it, as well. He always seemed pretty shady. So anyways, chalk up another loss for Frazier, but it was scored as a win.

How many gifts can a glass chinned fighter recieve in his career? How many big punchers and good fighters can one man duck before people start to raise questions? The proof is right here on paper, Frazier was a con. So, he moves on to beat up on “The Human Punching Bag” George Chuvalo, as well as Tony Doyle and Marion Conner.

This is where things start to get interesting. Ali, at this point, has his title stripped, so an 8 man elimination tournament is held, with fighters such as Ellis, Quarry, Martin, and Spencer, and some other no names. Should be an easy path to the title for Frazier, right? Wrong. Frazier and Durham OPT OUT OF THE TOURNAMENT. See, Frazier is too lazy and too soft to fight more than twice a year, so he decides to take on:

Buster Mathis (30-4). A rematch of the Olympics. A quick little story about that. Frazier won the 1964 gold medal, but that was because Mathis was injured and had to leave the tournament. HE ALREADY BEAT FRAZIER. Frazier undeservingly won the gold medal in his place. But the truth was, Mathis was just a big, fat, lump of **** with no skills at all. Proves that Joe can’t run with the big boys. Frazier gets lucky by TKO’ing Mathis in Round 11. Most likely Mathis would have caught Joe on his china chin and down he goes. But, Frazier gets lucky, and wins the NYSAC heavyweight title.

He moves on to defend it against Manuel Ramos, who ended up with a losing record. In that fight, Ramos almost knocks Joe out with one punch, and that was all Manuel had. No chin, no speed, nothing else. Frazier then doubles up on Bonavena, which he likes to do, and then beats Ziggy in 36 seconds. Yeah, great title defenses. And I thought this guy was a top 10 heavyweight? People may reconsider after reading this. Things get interesting
when he squares off with:

Jerry Quarry (53-9). Quarry was a great fighter, who would have been champion if, one, he boxed against Frazier, or two, he slugged it out with Ellis. He simply fought ****** both times. He also cut very easily. Now, Frazier was a thug, which is well known. He could brawl anytime, as he normally does on weekends in the bars. Quarry foolishly decides to turn the match into a slugfest, resulting in his downfall. Fight is stopped after 7.

Frazier moves on to beat up an inactive Jimmy Ellis and light heavy Bob Foster. Another example where Cloverlay in general avoided big hitters. Frazier was set to fight Mac Foster, who recently admitted that he would have stopped Frazier faster than Foreman did. But, Yank’s dog must have ate the contract, so the fight never came to be. This set the stage for The Fight of the Century, with:

just wondering, is this your way of trying to get people to like you?

[hemichromis]

Only one fighter won the largest, most important boxing match in history... and that was Joe Frazier.

which match?

[butterfly1964]

Only one fighter won the largest, most important boxing match in history... and that was Joe Frazier.

well, either him, joe louis, jack johnson, or gene tunney.

[Frazier's 15th round]

just wondering, is this your way of trying to get people to like you?

No, I don't give a **** whether you like me or not. I did it to amuse myself.

[butterfly1964]

Muhammad Ali (56-5). The best fighter Frazier ever faced. Alas, he was nowhere near his best as he had just had a long layoff, and had also barely trained for this fight. But, he still
manages to put Frazier in the hospital for 3 weeks, and was robbed of an obvious decision. Just look at Frazier’s face to see who won that fight. Ali easily beat him in both rematches,
as well. Frazier barely won a round in either fight. Also, Ali hit like a little girl, proving that Frazier takes fights with sissy punchers all the time to make himself look good. But when put in with a good or even halfway decent fighter, he gets wrecked.

After taking the rest of the year off, and padding his horrid record with more bums, named Terry Daniels (35-31, after beating nobody any good) and Ron Stander, Frazier meets up with:

George Foreman (76-5). Extremely padded record, only fighting about 4 top 10 guys in the 70’s. George and his feet stuck in the mud style didn’t even deserve a title shot, but Frazier figured he was another easy big man with no real boxing skills. He was right in that sense, but he forgot that he himself was not a great fighter, either. Foreman goes in and free swings all night, and bounces Frazier all over like a basketball. 6 knockdowns occur before the ref stops it. Glass Joe fails to impress once again (I think that’s how the guy from Punch Out got his name). Foreman would later be exposed in fights with Ali and even Jimmy Young. Those guys were clever enough to see that Foreman had no stamina, wasted all his energy throwing wild punches, and was an easy target. But Frazier was a cement headed bull, too ****** to box and move, so he walked right in to the flailing arms of this big turd George.

Frazier beats up on another big man named Joe Bugner. Frazier was wise in choosing this guy, as Durham had died by this point and Bugner had no skills. Ali then dances rings around Frazier. Frazier then decides to double up on Jerry Quarry and a shot Jimmy Ellis, before getting his ass kicked by Ali again, and finally getting whooped by that amateur Foreman again.

Now, the interesting thing about Joe’s career after Ali 1, is that it was pathetic. Frazier side stepped so many big punchers, it was laughable. He was signed on to fight Earnie Shavers, who had a glass jaw, perhaps even worse than Frazier’s, but Frazier knew Shavers would land one punch and it would be over. He also avoids Ken Norton and Ron Lyle, both of whom would have dispatched of him rather quickly. Ignore the stories about
how Norton and Frazier fought wars in sparring. Norton knocked him out easily many times. Eddie Futch knew Joe could never beat Ken, so he wouldn’t allow the fight to happen. So Frazier doubles up on shot fighters before getting an undeserving title shot. And shocker of all shockers, he loses. He then comes back to fight a skill-less Jumbo Cummings, but gets a gift draw. Anyone who was there knows Floyd won that fight.

In conclusion, Frazier should not be even considered a top 50 heavyweight. He beat a shot Ali, and that’s all his legacy has to stand on. He ducked all the big punchers (even old man
Liston), and the only one he fought utterly destroyed him. Frazier had no chin, no defense, overrated offense, and overrated heart. He quit on his stool in Manila, and doubled up on easy victories. He even admits this in his autobiography, calling many of the guys he fought names like sissies, pansies, and dogmeat. The fact is, every legendary fighter would have made mincemeat out of this chinny thug. And that’s the final word.

if you don't mind ernie, i'd like to know what site you got these things from. it would be interesting to hear what they had to say about louis, foreman, dempsey, etc. think you could hook me up?

[Frazier's 15th round]

I got the 'Ali was not a great fighter' from East Side Boxing. I made up the Frazier one myself.

Anyway, my thoughts on Louis/Foreman/Dempsey. Louis had a glass jaw and padded his record with the bum of the month. Marciano beat him all over the ring when they fought, proving that Louis was an overrated bum. Foreman's record was even more padded. He only beat a fat, lazy, more concerned with his music career than boxing Joe Frazier. He basically ducked everyone else like Quarry, and when he got a lucky shot in against Moorer (who was kicking his ass for 9 rounds) he avoids more fighters. Dempsey only fought one decent guy as well, and he lost 19 of 20 rounds this man, Gene Tunney. What was Dempsey's greatest win? Against the big, dumb, slow, no talent hack Jess Willard? Give me a break. All 3 are big bums.

[Kid Achilles]

I hope the point of Frazier's thread is not lost on certain individuals who post on this forum...

[Ted Spoon]

Consider This,

Without Joe Frazier, Ali's greatness dwindles, considerably.

Without Joe Frazier, Ali cannot boast 2-1 in their trilogy, which was considered great initially because of the fighter Frazier was n' how his style complemented Ali's.

Without Joe Frazier, George Foreman does not have his best win, which in turn lowers the significance of Ali's victory over George.

Joe Frazier's legacy is not only that of a great fighter, but it played a key role in underlining the significance of his rivals finest hours.

Joe Frazier's true greatness can never be over-stated, partly because it is always under-stated.