P4P list is bull****

[IronDanHamza]

So you have agreed that heavyweights are not favoured. Which is my argument. You have lost, after two pages of random BS. Do you really enjoy being embarrassed like this? It confuses me, this level of ******ity. You didn't bring up a single valid point to my argument, nor did you counter yet AND you replied to a post which had nothing to do with you.

You do seem heavily irked by me, I know, you probably feel inferior because I am better than you.

Well, for the third time, I never disputed that.

I was merely correcting you.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Hi there Mr Genius, you clearly didn't read the comment I was replying to, in which the poster said "heavyweights are favoured...especially nowadays". Do you know what that means? It means in recent times and in that time frame only Wlad, possibly Vitali and going back 15 years Lewis have featured.

If you had a brain as big as you think you do, you would have been able to understand my second paragraph, where I clearly state that post the "golden age of heavyweight boxing" regarded as the age of Ali/Frazier/Foreman, I quite clearly point out that only a few heavies have made it on to the list, because that list would grow and include Holy, Tyson, Holmes etc.

Oh man, you do like getting owned by me, you seem like a sadomasochist.

When I said it takes less skill now days I mean't as in less talented fighters hold belts vs for example welterweight where the champs are all very talented. But in reference to the p4p list I mean't all time list.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Man, RustyDanHamza wanted my attention so didn't see your response. You clearly state "heavyweights being favoured...at least noawadays", which is why I brought it up.

But if you are talking all time, even then most all time lists are made up of multi-weight champions and guys below heavy, ALTHOUGH the top ten can include two heavies, Ali and Louis and with the former, it is completely justified.

I understand your argument, that winning titles in mutiple weights is a great achievement but where else can a heavyweight go? lol PLus it's not like he is always fighting someone his exact weight, many heavyweights have to fight guys who outweigh them by quite some distance. So that in itself is a difficult task.

Take Ali's example for instance, his resume from 1964-1978 is one of the best ever, whose in that era can compare to that? There's very few all time that even compare to that. So he has a right to be rated all time alongside Robinson, Pep etc.

I never said "heavyweights being favored...at least nowadays" what said was something along the lines of Heavyweights being favored then I interjected another subject and said at least nowadays at the end of the sentence. I can see the confusion if you weren't reading it from my perspective.

Joe Louis and Ali were/always will be ATG's in overall boxing but like you said that some boxers were outweighed by a large amount. Joe Louis and Ali were usually those boxers who outweighed those fighters. That's why I think fighters like Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, James Toney, and other fighters alike who did well overall in their career should be ranked higher. I would put my top 3 as Robinson, Armstrong, and then Greb due to them fighting many larger opponents. I used to dislike Greb but later realized his challenges he faced by fighting larger men.

Overall, a p4p list should be used to add handicaps to fighters so they can rank higher. But that doesn't mean to not look at their actual record. I would not put anyone from the last 20 years or so on my p4p list ever because of PED use.

[soul_survivor]

I never said "heavyweights being favored...at least nowadays" what said was something along the lines of Heavyweights being favored then I interjected another subject and said at least nowadays at the end of the sentence. I can see the confusion if you weren't reading it from my perspective.

Joe Louis and Ali were/always will be ATG's in overall boxing but like you said that some boxers were outweighed by a large amount. Joe Louis and Ali were usually those boxers who outweighed those fighters. That's why I think fighters like Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, James Toney, and other fighters alike who did well overall in their career should be ranked higher. I would put my top 3 as Robinson, Armstrong, and then Greb due to them fighting many larger opponents. I used to dislike Greb but later realized his challenges he faced by fighting larger men.

Overall, a p4p list should be used to add handicaps to fighters so they can rank higher. But that doesn't mean to not look at their actual record. I would not put anyone from the last 20 years or so on my p4p list ever because of PED use.

Ali fought several opponents who weighed more but if your entire argument "A be at B who outweighed him so he must be better" tat doesn't stack up fr me so that's a fundamental difference in how we rank fighters. I respect your opinion on that but I think it's wrong.

Also, your words exactly were:

"Heavyweights are extremely favored on the p4p list when it takes less skill than the lighter weights to become champ, at least nowadays."

But I understand, you may have meant heavyweights nowadays require less skills maybe?

Either way, lighter divisions are always favoured in p4p lists and imo, in the modern era anyway, p4p lists are biased based on who owns the tv channel, network or magazine and their relationships to certain promoters. So it's all BS.

Objectively speaking, according to criteria long established by boxing scribes, I know for a fact there are few fighters in history better than Ali, Robinson, Leonard, Duran, Pep etc, so however one places them on their personal lists, they have to be top 10-15 anyway.

[BKM-2010]

I don't think that it is fair to compare fighters from flyweight to Heavyweight. Heavyweights are extremely favored on the p4p list when it takes less skill than the lighter weights to become champ, at least nowadays.

What are your thoughts?

Hard to believe you have it backwards so much. Heavyweight weightclass is the most dangerous because of the immense power of the fighters that can end the fight with 1 punch at any point of the fight.

If anything the pound for pound lists are unfair to the heavier weights because of the laws of gravity. Larger men are more limited in some of their physical abilities due to sheer size so you can't compare a say a LW because he has so much more speed, stamina and less danger due to lack of punching power.

[soul_survivor]

Hard to believe you have it backwards so much. Heavyweight weightclass is the most dangerous because of the immense power of the fighters that can end the fight with 1 punch at any point of the fight.

If anything the pound for pound lists are unfair to the heavier weights because of the laws of gravity. Larger men are more limited in some of their physical abilities due to sheer size so you can't compare a say a LW because he has so much more speed, stamina and less danger due to lack of punching power.

Agreed with you almost completely, which is why heavyweights with a mixture of exceptional reflexes, speed, power and skill, such as Ali, or Holyfield, or Lewis or Louis or Frazier or George should be ranked highly. They did most things better than most heavyweights and guys like Ali or Frazier fought like smaller men and were, in their primes, very light on their feet.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Hard to believe you have it backwards so much. Heavyweight weightclass is the most dangerous because of the immense power of the fighters that can end the fight with 1 punch at any point of the fight.

If anything the pound for pound lists are unfair to the heavier weights because of the laws of gravity. Larger men are more limited in some of their physical abilities due to sheer size so you can't compare a say a LW because he has so much more speed, stamina and less danger due to lack of punching power.

What you said has absolutely nothing to do with the law of gravity. Just because a fighter is a lighter weight doesn't mean they have less p4p power. They are still fighting fighters their size.

Power is either mass or speed derived. For most HW's it is mass derived. Power=Force x Speed. Just because a fighter is a HW doesn't mean they are sluggish, HW's are around their normal bodyweight and have more muscle mass than a person from lighter weights. Muhammad Ali was a HW who clearly didn't have whatever physical mobilities you are talking about.

[BKM-2010]

What you said has absolutely nothing to do with the law of gravity. Just because a fighter is a lighter weight doesn't mean they have less p4p power. They are still fighting fighters their size.

Is that why after a certain size, the KO percentages drop dramatically? If you want those facts it's in a post made by Sonnybox in a thread by The Old Left Hook.

Power is either mass or speed derived. For most HW's it is mass derived. Power=Force x Speed. Just because a fighter is a HW doesn't mean they are sluggish,

Nobody said sluggish. We're saying that speed, reflexes and stamina decrease which are facts, heavy's take more damage in the course of the fight and virtually every heavyweight has the ability to end the fight with 1 punch, it doesn't have the highest KO % for no reason.

HW's are around their normal bodyweight and have more muscle mass than a person from lighter weights. Muhammad Ali was a HW who clearly didn't have whatever physical mobilities you are talking about.

Here's one homework assignment for you. Take a 190lb guy who is very lean, take all of his abilities into account. Give him a few years to bullk up to a muscular 240lbs. Do you think he will still be as fast? Do you think his punching power will stay the same? Will he still have the same stamina with all that increase of muscle? This isn't difficult to understand.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Is that why after a certain size, the KO percentages drop dramatically? If you want those facts it's in a post made by Sonnybox in a thread by The Old Left Hook.



Nobody said sluggish. We're saying that speed, reflexes and stamina decrease which are facts, heavy's take more damage in the course of the fight and virtually every heavyweight has the ability to end the fight with 1 punch, it doesn't have the highest KO % for no reason.



Here's one homework assignment for you. Take a 190lb guy who is very lean, take all of his abilities into account. Give him a few years to bullk up to a muscular 240lbs. Do you think he will still be as fast? Do you think his punching power will stay the same? Will he still have the same stamina with all that increase of muscle? This isn't difficult to understand.

Yes he will have the same amount of stamina if not better but only if he trains for it. If he just sits on his ass and eats then clearly he will not. Despite your best attempts to use pseudoscience I think you need to quit bringing up all of these far fetched senarios. You are just embarassing yourself. Most of the heavyweights around today are close to their natural bodyweight. Deontay Wilder is 6'7" 230 lbs and probably would be if he didn't box.

Boxing is a CARDIO focused sport, not strength. Boxers do all cardio training. Heavy bag, speed bag, double end bag, sparring, jump rope, and shadowboxing are all CARDIO.

[BKM-2010]

Yes he will have the same amount of stamina if not better but only if he trains for it. If he just sits on his ass and eats then clearly he will not. Despite your best attempts to use pseudoscience I think you need to quit bringing up all of these far fetched senarios.

You seriously need evidence of scientific research that muscle needs more oxygen therefor your stamina will suffer? I thought common knowledge was enough for people nowadays but not for your dumbass. You have no clue.

Most of the heavyweights around today are close to their natural bodyweight. Deontay Wilder is 6'7" 230 lbs and probably would be if he didn't box.

Talk about pseudoscience, the irony. Guys like Wladimir have far more muscle mass on their frames than they would have if they weren't professional athletes, so your 'natural bodyweight' argument is nonsensical. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that speed and stamina will decrease for you to ignore it.

Don't be butthurt that you're the only one who can't understand the concept of size affecting physical abilities. You should've stayed in school.