March Madness + Boxing =

[Brassangel]

I think that both of these analyses are accurate. I imagine Muhammad Ali surviving Tyson early, even though he might get rocked and probably knocked down. Tyson's body blows would take it's toll, and rounds 6-9 might actually be lackluster, with Ali trying to cruise to the later rounds. Eventually, Ali gets off a few flurries to end a round or two, and that would, no doubt, frustrate Mike. While he may have a round or two afterwards where he attempts a final attack, a fight between these two which makes it past round 10 would definitely go in Ali's favor. In a 10 or even 12 round competition, Tyson might actually score higher on the cards, given that he would throw (and land) considerable amounts of punches, while being difficult to strike for Ali. In a 15 round fight, Ali would definitely mark up Iron Mike, and there would be stoppage.

For me, the circumstances depend upon the length of the fight, and how well Tyson is able to pin Ali and put punches together in those situations. Really, this would be best suited as a trilogy.

Ali, TKO 13

I don't think that Holmes vs. Louis would be nearly as exciting, as both would seek to counterpunch each other's jabs. Louis would have some shining moments where Holmes would be in trouble, but I agree with both of you in a UD for the Assassin.

Holmes, UD

FINALS

Holmes vs. Ali COMING SOON!

[K-DOGG]

Holmes vs Ali....man o man am I gonna have to think on this one. Stylewise, this one is gonna be a chess match and ....well, I'll just wait and post later.

[K-DOGG]

Oh, I can't stand it. I've thought about this one before and it's not an easy pick, and truthfully, could go either way. The one thing I remember about the real Ali-Holmes fight that is a little relative was a fleeting minute in Round 8 when Ali got on his toes, circled Holmes, and double jabbed....and landed, which pissed off Holmes. It hinted at the trouble Larry would have had with a prime Ali. The potential trouble Ali's movement could have had on Holmes can also be seen in round 10 (?) of the Witherspoon fight when Tim got up on his toes for a bit. However, Renaldo Snipes was on the move and Larry's jab took care of him for the most part; but Renaldo is no Ali.

The thing about this match up is how diverse Larry was; he could stalk, counter, or dance. Larry was a better technical boxer than Ali was, his jab was stronger but not as fast, and he had very good body work as oppossed to Ali who had next to nill. Ali was more talented; but Larry was better schooled. Both had huge hearts, Ali was faster and had more fluid movement and a better jaw. Still, Ali had a tendency to pull his head back instead of convential blocking and Larry had pretty fast hands. Power wise...they're both about the same. But Ali was very quick with the right hand...a punch Larry was vulnerable to...and speed, quite often, equals power....especially with a young Ali.

Ali, I think, would most assuredly start off dancing which would put Larry into stalker mode, forcing Holmes to disrupt Ali's rythm with his jab...which he would be capable of doing. Conversely, Ali's jab would be flicking and he he would be looking to counter Larry's jab with a quick right over the top. I think a key point in this match-up is Larry being suceptable to one of Ali's best punchest, the right, while Ali was more suceptable to the left hook...of which, Larry rarely used. What this means is Ali's got one more advantage.

I think the first half of the fight would be a tactical battle with Holmes trying to counter Ali and Ali attempting to counter Homes and counter Holmes' counters and like-wise. Also, Holmes would be trying to not only disrupt Ali's rythm with his jab; but use the jabe to get in close and work on Ali's body and come up with uppercuts, which were some of his better punches.

The thing is I can see Larry's eyes swelling up from Ali's faster jabs where Ali didn't have a tendency to swell, much less get hit. Larry would hit him...I just don't think as often as Ali would hit him back. The swelling around Holmes eyes due to Ali's jab would impair his vision and make him easier to hit as the bout drew on. Also, Ali would start slowing down towards the later rounds from Holmes' body work. Somewhere around the 10th round I can see Ali going in behind a double jab and catching Holmes with a beautiful straight right hand which wobbles him, sending Ali into a follow up flurry which has Holmes reeling. Showing his huge heart, Holmes fires back, catching Ali; but not having enough pop in his punches to hurt the iron-chinned champ...but enough to get his attention and respect. However, Larry opening up would give Ali more countering opportunities. He doesn't get the knock-out; but the tide has finally turned. The last five rounds, Holmes would haved moments; but, overall, I see Ali pulling away............Ali by UD.



There, now I feel better.

[K-DOGG]

Props to BrassAngel for a fascinating thread.

[Brassangel]

Thank you, K-DOGG, and everyone else who participated.

Interesting (if even debatables):

Tyson vs. Ali
-While Ali would likely be the victor, it is important to note that Ali had a tendency to pull his head back as opposed to blocking or clinching. This was usually a poor strategy against fighters with decent speed, as they could catch him on the way back. If, for example, you watch Clay vs. Liston, Sonny often misses with several potentially crunching blows by mere centimeters. Given that he was in his thirties and trained poorly, a younger, more ambitious Liston may have ended Clay's career early with the extra speed that he would have possessed with his hands. I will give due credit to Cassius, however, as his timing was pristine that night.

Joe Frazier's dramatic knockdown of Ali in their first epic battle happened to take place while Ali was leaning his head back to avoid a left hook. While Ali was a little rusty from only having two exhibitions after the layoff, Joe's reach was considerably short. Still, he was able to take advantage of this unorthodox defensive maneuver. Even during Ali's "prime" when he fought Folley (who would never make this top 32), he had trouble when attempting to lean away, as Folley often countered and caught him. In fact, Folley was winning the rounds until a few baby punches broke the glass in his jaw during mid rounds.

In each of these instances, a fighter was able to take subtle advantage of Ali's poor defensive tactic. These fighters rarely capitalized, however, and failed to put punches together when the opportunity presented itself. Frazier was often the closest to achieving this, and thus, found himself a nuisance for Ali. Mike Tyson was always putting punches together when an opportunity presented itself; often for a good 7-8 rounds; sometimes 10 (vs. Biggs, etc.). While he came out of the gates faster and rarely opted to conserve his energy, that usually spelled bad news for his opponents who tried to spend the early rounds settling into a comfort zone. Ali was slippery, and pretty resilient, but I think, given the information presented in this thread, he never put up with an opportunistic aggressor quite like Mike, so we really have no idea whether or not he could realistically stand up to it.

Should the opening have presented itself where Mike catches Muhammad while he's leaning, I guarantee you he would have then attacked the body while Ali brought his gloves up, and then slipped an uppercut into the sweet spot. Call me crazy, but I am going to go against the norm, at the risk of receving flame, and say that Mike Tyson could beat Muhammad Ali in their first meeting. Now, if there was a rematch (which there certainly would be, as Ali was too prideful not to take this option), Ali would win. If there was a third to complete the series, then Ali would probably win big, much like Manilla.

Whew! With that aside, let it be noted that Muhammad Ali was the winner of our March (or April) Madness boxing tournament for 2006!

CHAMPION: MUHAMMAD ALI!

[SonnyG8R]

This was a very entertaining and educational thread. Thanks for making the thread and to those who contributed to it. Here is how I had the tournament whinding up.

Muhammad Ali vs. Jack Johnson

Ken Norton vs. Mike Tyson

Joe Louis vs. George Foreman

Larry Holmes vs. Jim Jeffries

Final 4:

Ali - Tyson

Foreman - Holmes

Championship Round:

Ali - Holmes

Champ: Muhammad Ali

[Brassangel]

Thanks to everybody who participated! Now, I would like some suggestions as to which matchups could have been changed, or if any seatings should have been different. Also, who would have been the most likely candidate to shake up the brackets and cause an upset or two?

Next year Muhammad Ali will prepare to defend his crown, and this time, there will be the full 64, along with different pairings to make things a little tougher for the #1 spots.

[K-DOGG]

Brassangel.....Looking forward to it and, for what it's worth, the style-match-ups have about 90% to do with it. Obviously, I didn't agree with who you chose to go into the second round or the third (can't remember all specific match-ups); but since it was your thread, I went with what you deemed were the quarter-finalist and so forth and so on. For example, I had Tyson losing in the first round due to his match-up with Godfrey, which I though would be extremely difficult for him; but had him winning in the next two rounds also based on style.

Too bad computers can't really disect how a mythical match would go because of the "human-factor"; but it's fun to guess.

Can't wait for the next "playoffs".

[SonnyG8R]

Maybe we could have a middleweight tournament so we don't have to wait until next year.

[K-DOGG]

Maybe we could have a middleweight tournament so we don't have to wait until next year.

There's a thought.