Calzaghe vs prime Eubank

[BennyST]

Please just stop.

He was a world champion for ten years and spent much of that time as the number 1 or 2 ranked fighter. That is the very definition of world class. When you are the best in the world in your weight division, you are literally world class.

They don't have to be better than Roy Jones to be world class. It doesn't matter if prime James Toney would beat him and if Nigel Benn landed a bomb and knocked him out, so be it. I don't agree with that at all by the way, considering Kessler's chin, durability and overall class. It doesn't stop him from having been the best fighter in his division, and a champion for ten years, meaning, he was world class.

Just think for one second what it actually means. World. Class...does not mean a legend of your division, doesn't mean you wouldn't lose to prime Roy Jones and prime James Toney, two ATG's that would beat most fighters in history at their best...that's a different story about historical greatness. World class is literally just that, if you are the class of your division in the world currently. A champion over ten years, constantly ranked among the very top 1-3 fighters is the exact definition of it.

Is Carl Froch world class right now? Is he among the best fighters in the world at 168 today? I'd say a very obvious yes, but he lost to a past prime Kessler, lost to Ward and would undoubtedly lose to Jones and Toney and there's even a chance he'd might get bombed out by Benn too if Benn landed a big bomb on him...does that stop him from being world class? Of course it ****ing doesn't! Just like that doesn't stop Kessler from being world class.

If you're a proper champion in your division for any decent length of time, you are world class. It's that simple. Otherwise only ATG's are world class, which is ludicrous. They're ATG's. All. Time. Greats.

We're not talking P4P and we're not talking ATG's. That is what those definitions exist for...P4P and ATG. World class is just that. The best guys in the world in each division currently. The world class fighters, not the best P4P fighters and not the greats of all time. Not a difficult concept.

[joseph5620]

Sakio Bika is a world class loser.

Lost to every decent fighter he fought.

[sonnyboyx2]

He was a world champion for ten years and spent much of that time as the number 1 or 2 ranked fighter. That is the very definition of world class. When you are the best in the world in your weight division, you are literally world class.

They don't have to be better than Roy Jones to be world class. It doesn't matter if prime James Toney would beat him and if Nigel Benn landed a bomb and knocked him out, so be it. I don't agree with that at all by the way, considering Kessler's chin, durability and overall class. It doesn't stop him from having been the best fighter in his division, and a champion for ten years, meaning, he was world class.

Just think for one second what it actually means. World. Class...does not mean a legend of your division, doesn't mean you wouldn't lose to prime Roy Jones and prime James Toney, two ATG's that would beat most fighters in history at their best...that's a different story about historical greatness. World class is literally just that, if you are the class of your division in the world currently. A champion over ten years, constantly ranked among the very top 1-3 fighters is the exact definition of it.

Is Carl Froch world class right now? Is he among the best fighters in the world at 168 today? I'd say a very obvious yes, but he lost to a past prime Kessler, lost to Ward and would undoubtedly lose to Jones and Toney and there's even a chance he'd might get bombed out by Benn too if Benn landed a big bomb on him...does that stop him from being world class? Of course it ****ing doesn't! Just like that doesn't stop Kessler from being world class.

If you're a proper champion in your division for any decent length of time, you are world class. It's that simple. Otherwise only ATG's are world class, which is ludicrous. They're ATG's. All. Time. Greats.

We're not talking P4P and we're not talking ATG's. That is what those definitions exist for...P4P and ATG. World class is just that. The best guys in the world in each division currently. The world class fighters, not the best P4P fighters and not the greats of all time. Not a difficult concept.

Lets take a closer look at what you are claiming.

World Champion for 10yrs ??? The truth of what you are claiming is, Kessler was nothing other than an alphabet holder for 3yrs fighting Class C fighters in that 3yrs then losing a wide decision to Calzaghe.

He then reverted back to his fighting Class C fighters for vacant alphabet titles then entered into the Super-Six Tournement..

Mikkel Kessler's claim to fame is a hometown decision victory over Carl Froch.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Lets take a closer look at what you are claiming.

World Champion for 10yrs ??? The truth of what you are claiming is, Kessler was nothing other than an alphabet holder for 3yrs fighting Class C fighters in that 3yrs then losing a wide decision to Calzaghe.

He then reverted back to his fighting Class C fighters for vacant alphabet titles then entered into the Super-Six Tournement..

Mikkel Kessler's claim to fame is a hometown decision victory over Carl Froch.

All you say, proves that Kessler probably isn't a hall of famer, but their is no doubt he was world class...
It's like in other pro sports, if your a starter on your team, then your world class.. Doesn't mean your an all star, mvp, HOFer, it just means your really really good and way beyond the average athlete..

[AlexKid]

Joe via decision, if you dont take Joe out, its almost certain he will win on the score cards because of his ridiculous work rate. On top of that the southpaw advantage.

Close fight.

[BennyST]

Lets take a closer look at what you are claiming.

World Champion for 10yrs ??? The truth of what you are claiming is, Kessler was nothing other than an alphabet holder for 3yrs fighting Class C fighters in that 3yrs then losing a wide decision to Calzaghe.

He then reverted back to his fighting Class C fighters for vacant alphabet titles then entered into the Super-Six Tournement..

Mikkel Kessler's claim to fame is a hometown decision victory over Carl Froch.

Ok, whatever, I don't give a **** about any of that. You are actually agreeing with me that he is world class. Maybe you aren't meaning to, but you just said he is world class above. That stuff still makes no difference to the fact that he was among the top 3 fighters in his division for a decade. That is the literal definition of world class. Why you're being so obtuse is beyond me. Lose the wilful ignorance, it's just ****ing boring.

No one is claiming he's great. No one is claiming he wouldn't lose to the guys you listed and I don't think anyone gives much of a **** anyway. Of course Jones and Toney would beat him. Who cares though? That has no bearing whatsoever on the point you're trying to argue against. It doesn't mean a damn thing.

Maybe in a division with Jones, Toney, Calzaghe, Ward etc he wouldn't be near the top of his class/division and thus wouldn't be considered world class. But today, or over the last ten years, he has been and thus is world class. Get it?

Answer this: is Froch world class? If he is, then you agree purely by default that Kessler is too. If you struggle to grasp two simple words with a very basic concept, no one can help you. We are not talking HOFers, ATG's, legends, top ranked P4Pers or anything like that.

We are simply talking about the world class fighters in each division, not of the divisions history which you seem completely unable to comprehend, of which Kessler is undoubtedly, clearly, a proven world class fighter over many, many years. Even the titles don't matter.

What matters is if he is among the very best in the world in his division at the time he was fighting. That is what 'world class' means for ****s sake!



It's like arguing with a child.

As for winning a hometown decision over Froch, that's just you being daft. No one claimed it was a hometown win except some Froch fans well after the fact. It was a perfectly fine, close fight and decision that the unbiased majority felt Kessler won by a round or two and that no one had any problem with at the time. Let's all revise history though shall we?

[sonnyboyx2]

Ok, whatever, I don't give a **** about any of that. You are actually agreeing with me that he is world class. Maybe you aren't meaning to, but you just said he is world class above. That stuff still makes no difference to the fact that he was among the top 3 fighters in his division for a decade. That is the literal definition of world class. Why you're being so obtuse is beyond me. Lose the wilful ignorance, it's just ****ing boring.

No one is claiming he's great. No one is claiming he wouldn't lose to the guys you listed and I don't think anyone gives much of a **** anyway. Of course Jones and Toney would beat him. Who cares though? That has no bearing whatsoever on the point you're trying to argue against. It doesn't mean a damn thing.

Maybe in a division with Jones, Toney, Calzaghe, Ward etc he wouldn't be near the top of his class/division and thus wouldn't be considered world class. But today, or over the last ten years, he has been and thus is world class. Get it?

Answer this: is Froch world class? If he is, then you agree purely by default that Kessler is too. If you struggle to grasp two simple words with a very basic concept, no one can help you. We are not talking HOFers, ATG's, legends, top ranked P4Pers or anything like that.

We are simply talking about the world class fighters in each division, not of the divisions history which you seem completely unable to comprehend, of which Kessler is undoubtedly, clearly, a proven world class fighter over many, many years. Even the titles don't matter.

What matters is if he is among the very best in the world in his division at the time he was fighting. That is what 'world class' means for ****s sake!



It's like arguing with a child.

As for winning a hometown decision over Froch, that's just you being daft. No one claimed it was a hometown win except some Froch fans well after the fact. It was a perfectly fine, close fight and decision that the unbiased majority felt Kessler won by a round or two and that no one had any problem with at the time. Let's all revise history though shall we?

No Carl Froch is not world class, he is masquerading as a World Champion when the truth is Andre Ward easily defeated Froch and Kessler.. Ward is the World Champion in their division... Froch beating Yusef Mack & George Groves does not make him a World Class fighter. Froch fought the best in the division during the Super-Six Tournemont and came up short, as did Mikkel Kessler. They were both exposed as being short of world class.

Fighters today "Hand-Pick" who they want to fight. So it is fairly easy to get a Top 10 ranking and remain in the Top 10 for several years... Would Kessler & Froch have been ranked in the Top 10 Super-Middleweight Division during the 1990s ?.... i doubt it

I Totally disagree with you claiming any fighter to be "World Class" because he is one of the ranked fighters in his division.

[Chrismart]

Calzaghe is a tough fight for anybody. I'd go with a prime Eubank though.

[BennyST]

No Carl Froch is not world class, he is masquerading as a World Champion when the truth is Andre Ward easily defeated Froch and Kessler.. Ward is the World Champion in their division... Froch beating Yusef Mack & George Groves does not make him a World Class fighter. Froch fought the best in the division during the Super-Six Tournemont and came up short, as did Mikkel Kessler. They were both exposed as being short of world class.

Fighters today "Hand-Pick" who they want to fight. So it is fairly easy to get a Top 10 ranking and remain in the Top 10 for several years... Would Kessler & Froch have been ranked in the Top 10 Super-Middleweight Division during the 1990s ?.... i doubt it

I Totally disagree with you claiming any fighter to be "World Class" because he is one of the ranked fighters in his division.

http://cdn.teen.com/wp-content/uploa...rt-girls-3.gif

Jesus ****ing christ mate!! Stop bringing up **** that has no goddamn bearing on this conversation! It. Does. Not. Matter. If. They. Wouldn't. Be. Top. Fighters. In. The. 90's! It doesn't matter that Ward beat them and is the real champion. We all know that. Ward is world class, but he's not the only world class fighter in the division. There isn't just one world class guy in each division. That's just the champion.



That is not what being world class means. You agree with it by default, but then keep bringing up whether they rate on an historical scale simply to disagree or whether they are the 'real' champion. I don't know if you're doing it out of ignorance or deliberately. That's got no bearing on what world class means.

World class is the top fighters of each division today. The level of world class fighters changes from era to era and doesn't mean only the very top guy. Today's world class fighters don't have to be as good as another eras world class fighters to still be world class. That's why there are different discussions, but world class means the top fighters of the current era in comparison with each other, not in comparison with other eras. The current crop of fighters. The guys at the top of the division right now, today, at this moment in time, are the world class fighters of today. Not the ATG's of the division, nor in terms of comparisons with completely different eras. No bearing! No relevance! Stop bringing it up!

If they would lose to the fighters of the 90's, that has absolutely no relevance to the discussion of whether they are the world class fighters of their division now. Today, not in the 90's. That's a discussion of historical greatness and a comparison of different eras. Two completely different things.

You might disagree with it, but that's what it means. That's the very definition of what it means.

Froch is not the champion, but he is without any doubt a world class fighter, as was Kessler, as is Ward. All of these guys are world class. They are at the top of their respective division from all the ranked fighters around the world, thus are the 'class' i.e. the best guys, of the division. That equals world class.

[billeau2]

I think the disagreement between Sonny and Benny is, a semantic distinction. You call it bread, i call it custard type thing.

I agree that both have made good points. The thing is how many loses, how long at the top is what world class is?